The "tree of knowledge" explained

[wydileie]

Agree.  You could change to Muslim, Buddhist or Hindu tomorrow, but why don't you?

I've already answered this in great detail on this board from this exact question you asked and you never responded.

If you believe what the Bible says, man wasn't always evil.  Man didn't even know he was naked until eating from the Tree of Knowledge, right?  Why did man eat from the tree of knowledge... because God set him up, knowing he would eat the fruit because, again, God knows everything.

God didn't setup anyone. You are setting up a paradoxical situation trying to blame God because of choices Adam and Eve made. If God knew they would fail, isn't He at fault for creating them in the first place? No. People are responsible for their own choices. Paul goes into this idea in detail in Romans 9 and 10.

People are going to hell, presumably, because Adam ate the apple, right?  According to the Bible, God will come back to earth and make the earth how it was pre-tree of knowledge.  In other words, God setup Adam, knowing he would fail.  Then God reveals his son to a tiny portion of the world AFTER other religions had been established for thousands of year and then God set the rules that you have to believe in him to get to heaven... then he sits back and watch innocent children starving, getting raped, beaten and abused and does nothing about it and, thanks to his rules, about 2/3 of them, unless they are lucky enough to die in childhood, will believe in the wrong god, and can look forward to an eternity of torture after going through hell on earth because that's his rule.

Same as the previous answer. You are trying to transfer the blame of peoples' own choices onto God. If someone today was born and happened to live a sinless life, they would not be condemned. Fact is, that is impossible because everybody fails, everybody is evil, everybody makes the wrong choices.

Until you can answer the paradox you have contrived as to how God is supposed to intervene, yet we have free will, this whole conversation is pointless.

[P1tchblack]

I've never advocated eliminating all evil. I'm questioning, the assertion that God is all-loving and all powerful.  You clearly do not believe that he is. Your god is much different than the one that many Christians believe in.

But you talk about selectively eliminating sin and evil.  Why should God only eliminate the sin and evil that you want him to eliminate?  Everyone is equally condemned.

Bump

I didn't see this.....

It's not about what I, personally, want him to eliminate.  It's about what a truly all-loving/all-powerful being would do.  Would an all-loving/all-powerful being stand by and watch a child get raped or beaten?  Would YOU stand by and watch a child get raped or beaten if you were able to stop it with a wiggle of your nose?  What kind of person would you be if you had the ability to stop it, with .00001% effort, but chose not to?

You are not being honest.  You specifically chose certain instances of evil behavior that you expect God to intervene in and stop. 

I have my opinion on some things that I would expect stopped by an all-loving, fatherly-type being, yes.  It's just my opinion.

In God's eyes, the children being raped are just as condemned as the ones doing the raping. 

Again, those children don't have to be viewed as condemned due to Adam's mistake, right? God chooses to view them as condemned. God, who actually has free will, had a choice to not initiate the Fall, to NOT require a human sacrifice to save man and to NOT view children as condemned, didn't he?  Even man has enough sense to recognize that you don't treat children as you would adults.

As I said, if God removed all evil from the world, there would be no one here.  Now once again, why should God only eliminate the sin and evil that you don't like?

I don't think all evil should be removed the world.  

[Hightop77]

But you talk about selectively eliminating sin and evil.  Why should God only eliminate the sin and evil that you want him to eliminate?  Everyone is equally condemned.

Bump

I didn't see this.....

It's not about what I, personally, want him to eliminate.  It's about what a truly all-loving/all-powerful being would do.  Would an all-loving/all-powerful being stand by and watch a child get raped or beaten?  Would YOU stand by and watch a child get raped or beaten if you were able to stop it with a wiggle of your nose?  What kind of person would you be if you had the ability to stop it, with .00001% effort, but chose not to?

You are not being honest.  You specifically chose certain instances of evil behavior that you expect God to intervene in and stop. 

I have my opinion on some things that I would expect stopped by an all-loving, fatherly-type being, yes.  It's just my opinion.

In God's eyes, the children being raped are just as condemned as the ones doing the raping. 

Again, those children don't have to be viewed as condemned due to Adam's mistake, right? God chooses to view them as condemned. God, who actually has free will, had a choice to not initiate the Fall, to NOT require a human sacrifice to save man and to NOT view children as condemned, didn't he?  Even man has enough sense to recognize that you don't treat children as you would adults.

As I said, if God removed all evil from the world, there would be no one here.  Now once again, why should God only eliminate the sin and evil that you don't like?

I don't think all evil should be removed the world.  

Here is where you are show you don't really understand.  Orthodox Christianity clearly believes and the Bible says that all are condemned by God at conception.  Not even debatable.  Condemnation is not based on sin as an act and there is no magic age of accountability.  That is a heresy called Pelagianism.  Your condemnation is based on your nature.  The sinful acts merely follow.  God does not divide humanity up between the good, the bad and the ugly.  All fall in the same category and all stand condemned. 

Once again.  Why should God only remove the sin and sinful behavior you think is bad?

[P1tchblack]

Agree.  You could change to Muslim, Buddhist or Hindu tomorrow, but why don't you?

I've already answered this in great detail on this board from this exact question you asked and you never responded.

If you believe what the Bible says, man wasn't always evil.  Man didn't even know he was naked until eating from the Tree of Knowledge, right?  Why did man eat from the tree of knowledge... because God set him up, knowing he would eat the fruit because, again, God knows everything.

God didn't setup anyone.

Of course he did.

You are setting up a paradoxical situation trying to blame God because of choices Adam and Eve made.

Even if I agree that adam and eve had your "partial" free will, that doesn't mean that God didn't know they were going to eat the fruit.  God IS all powerful and all knowing, after all.

If God knew they would fail, isn't He at fault for creating them in the first place? No.

If not God, who would be at fault?

People are responsible for their own choices. Paul goes into this idea in detail in Romans 9 and 10.

Of course they are, but as rational adults, we recognize that kids aren't able to make informed decisions.  So, if I saw one of your kids (assuming you have any) being lured into a van with the windows blacked out, I wouldn't say "Well.... free will!  Have fun".  I would intervene to the best of my ability to avoid something terrible happening.  Wouldn't you?

People are going to hell, presumably, because Adam ate the apple, right?  According to the Bible, God will come back to earth and make the earth how it was pre-tree of knowledge.  In other words, God setup Adam, knowing he would fail.  Then God reveals his son to a tiny portion of the world AFTER other religions had been established for thousands of year and then God set the rules that you have to believe in him to get to heaven... then he sits back and watch innocent children starving, getting raped, beaten and abused and does nothing about it and, thanks to his rules, about 2/3 of them, unless they are lucky enough to die in childhood, will believe in the wrong god, and can look forward to an eternity of torture after going through hell on earth because that's his rule.

Same as the previous answer. You are trying to transfer the blame of peoples' own choices onto God. If someone today was born and happened to live a sinless life, they would not be condemned. Fact is, that is impossible because everybody fails, everybody is evil, everybody makes the wrong choices.

Until you can answer the paradox you have contrived as to how God is supposed to intervene, yet we have free will, this whole conversation is pointless.

[P1tchblack]

Bump

I didn't see this.....

It's not about what I, personally, want him to eliminate.  It's about what a truly all-loving/all-powerful being would do.  Would an all-loving/all-powerful being stand by and watch a child get raped or beaten?  Would YOU stand by and watch a child get raped or beaten if you were able to stop it with a wiggle of your nose?  What kind of person would you be if you had the ability to stop it, with .00001% effort, but chose not to?

You are not being honest.  You specifically chose certain instances of evil behavior that you expect God to intervene in and stop. 

I have my opinion on some things that I would expect stopped by an all-loving, fatherly-type being, yes.  It's just my opinion.

In God's eyes, the children being raped are just as condemned as the ones doing the raping. 

Again, those children don't have to be viewed as condemned due to Adam's mistake, right? God chooses to view them as condemned. God, who actually has free will, had a choice to not initiate the Fall, to NOT require a human sacrifice to save man and to NOT view children as condemned, didn't he?  Even man has enough sense to recognize that you don't treat children as you would adults.

As I said, if God removed all evil from the world, there would be no one here.  Now once again, why should God only eliminate the sin and evil that you don't like?

I don't think all evil should be removed the world.  

Here is where you are show you don't really understand.  Orthodox Christianity clearly believes and the Bible says that all are condemned by God at conception.  Not even debatable. 

I'm not disputing that all are condemned at conception.  I'm simply pointing out that all are condemned at conception BECAUSE that's how God wanted it.  God didn't HAVE to condemn everyone at conception.

Condemnation is not based on sin as an act and there is no magic age of accountability. 

If that is the case, and I assume you're correct, it's only because of how God made it that way, but I'm confused how you would call any being perfect, all-loving, all-powerful and "fatherly" that would orchestrate a scenario where it would be acceptable to stand by and watch children suffer.

That is a heresy called Pelagianism.  Your condemnation is based on your nature.  The sinful acts merely follow.  God does not divide humanity up between the good, the bad and the ugly. 

But, he could if he wanted to.  He could punish the wicked and could intervene on behalf of the good (i.e. children), couldn't he?  The only thing stopping him are the rules he put in place....which he could change...you know.... if he wanted to.  

Once again.  Why should God only remove the sin and sinful behavior you think is bad?

Again, it's not about me or what I want.  It's about how an all-loving/all-powerful being, who is supposed to be perfectly moral, would behave, if he was all-loving and all-powerful.

[Orbit1]

I want to be clear here…I am definitely not in the “Love Wins” camp where everyone makes it. That is 100% NOT Scriptural. There is a Judgement coming and faith in Buddha, Allah, Krishna, or anyone demonic anti Christ spirit will get you there.
“Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭4:12‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

There is a Judgement there is a literal Hell
“Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:14-15‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

"God is a God of Righteousness and Justice."

If you really look at the facts surrounding God revealing his son, and therefore Christianity, to the world, I don't know where you find righteousness or justice.

I study Scripture all the time. I study books about the Scriptures. I look at words in their original Hebrew and Greek texts. I read commentaries. I can assure you that I have “really looked at the facts”  Lol

I bet you know more about the Bible than I do as it relates to the historical details and other devotional subjects but, when you read/study devotionally, you don't generally look at it critically or even objectively. There's a whole area of study devoted to this called historical-critical.

You say that God is righteous and just, yet he revealed his son to only the smallest portion of the world and did so after other religions had been established for thousands of years.  By doing that, he basically ensured that, to this day, the entire population of India is condemned to hell for believing in the wrong god.  Does that seem like justice?

Do you really think I donâ€t know how to study historically and critically? Like this is some new concept Iâ€m all of a sudden thanks to you, just learning exists?? Haha!
Umm…No. Thatâ€s not a new concept to me.
Ive told you before thereâ€s nothing you have ever posted that Iâ€ve not learned or at the very least heard about. You bring elementary questions that everyone has asked before. I have more and deeper questions just studying and sitting under my Pastor than you have ever stated here.
Your problem is you study to prove scripture is wrong, rather than studying to know Him. You will never understand it that way. Ever. Scripture is spiritual.
But you be you  keep posting your atheistic and humanist same points over and over.
Iâ€m bored with them.
You remind me of Mr November. Lol

[wydileie]

...BS...

Restated again.
Until you can answer the paradox you have contrived as to how God is supposed to intervene, yet we have free will, this whole conversation is pointless.

[P1tchblack]

...BS...

Restated again.
Until you can answer the paradox you have contrived as to how God is supposed to intervene, yet we have free will, this whole conversation is pointless.

Our all powerful, all loving heavenly "father" should intervene in any way required to protect, at the very least, innocent children.  He's all-powerful, so I'll leave the 'how' up to him.

But, as we argue on this forum, children are being raped, dying of starvation, having bones broken by truly evil parents, having cigarettes put out on their backs and your 'all-loving" god chooses to stand by and do nothing.

According to UNC4Corners, the ones that are lucky enough to die in childhood will go to heaven.  Two-thirds of those who survive into adulthood can look forward to an eternity of hell because they were born to the wrong parents, in the wrong part of the world, and believe in the wrong god.

[wydileie]

Our all powerful, all loving heavenly "father" should intervene in any way required to protect, at the very least, innocent children.  He's all-powerful, so I'll leave the 'how' up to him.

But, as we argue on this forum, children are being raped, dying of starvation having bones broken by truly evil parents, having cigarettes put out on their backs and your 'all-loving" god chooses to stand by and do nothing.

Cool, so you have no answer than? Good to know.

My God is all powerful, all knowing, just, wrathful, jealous, loving, merciful, and a whole slew of other things. The fact that you can't even answer a simple question, yet deem to question an all powerful being is laughable.

God let's humans be humans. We make our own choices and live our own lives. For some people, bad things that happen to them as children change them for the better, or make them better people. For others, they take those experiences and become bitter and change towards more evil themselves. Our experiences are what make us human, and you want to rob people of their free will for some arbitrary line in the sand you want to draw that you can't even specify.

[P1tchblack]

Our all powerful, all loving heavenly "father" should intervene in any way required to protect, at the very least, innocent children.  He's all-powerful, so I'll leave the 'how' up to him.

But, as we argue on this forum, children are being raped, dying of starvation having bones broken by truly evil parents, having cigarettes put out on their backs and your 'all-loving" god chooses to stand by and do nothing.

Cool, so you have no answer than? Good to know.

There are a nearly unlmited scenarios where God could intervene and as many ways that the intervening could happen.  Let's say some sicko has kidnapped a 10 year old girl and is getting ready to rape her. God could, I don't know, send a swarm of bees onto to him... he seems to love plagues.  Or  simply kill the person as he did all of the non-Jewish kids on Passover.  I'm sure there are things I can't even fathom that are in God's arsenal.  Maybe turn the guy inside-out.  I don't know. Set his dick on fire...do something.

My God is all powerful, all knowing, just, wrathful, jealous, loving, merciful, and a whole slew of other things. The fact that you can't even answer a simple question, yet deem to question an all powerful being is laughable.

God let's humans be humans. We make our own choices and live our own lives. For some people, bad things that happen to them as children change them for the better, or make them better people. For others, they take those experiences and become bitter and change towards more evil themselves. Our experiences are what make us human, and you want to rob people of their free will for some arbitrary line in the sand you want to draw that you can't even specify.

Again, I'm not disputing that bad things happen.  I'm simply pointing out that God could, at the very least, protect innocent children, but chooses not to.  Even parents don't just push their 2 year old kids out the front door, into the hands of "free will" and hope for the best.

[wydileie]

Again, I'm not disputing that bad things happen.  I'm simply pointing out that God could, at the very least, protect innocent children, but chooses not to.  Even parents don't just push their 2 year old kids out the front door, into the hands of "free will" and hope for the best.

You are pointing out nothing. You are trying to contrive a situation where God interrupts humans' free will for some arbitrary line in the sand that you believe warrants it, while not detailing where that line should be or how that affects human behavior. If everyone that tries to rape a child (or anyone) suddenly gets involved in a "Final Destination" scenario that ends in them failing/dying/whatever, it then becomes pretty obvious God exists, no? It then completely subverts all free will we as humans maintain.

[Hightop77]

I didn't see this.....

It's not about what I, personally, want him to eliminate.  It's about what a truly all-loving/all-powerful being would do.  Would an all-loving/all-powerful being stand by and watch a child get raped or beaten?  Would YOU stand by and watch a child get raped or beaten if you were able to stop it with a wiggle of your nose?  What kind of person would you be if you had the ability to stop it, with .00001% effort, but chose not to?

You are not being honest.  You specifically chose certain instances of evil behavior that you expect God to intervene in and stop. 

I have my opinion on some things that I would expect stopped by an all-loving, fatherly-type being, yes.  It's just my opinion.

In God's eyes, the children being raped are just as condemned as the ones doing the raping. 

Again, those children don't have to be viewed as condemned due to Adam's mistake, right? God chooses to view them as condemned. God, who actually has free will, had a choice to not initiate the Fall, to NOT require a human sacrifice to save man and to NOT view children as condemned, didn't he?  Even man has enough sense to recognize that you don't treat children as you would adults.

As I said, if God removed all evil from the world, there would be no one here.  Now once again, why should God only eliminate the sin and evil that you don't like?

I don't think all evil should be removed the world.  

Here is where you are show you don't really understand.  Orthodox Christianity clearly believes and the Bible says that all are condemned by God at conception.  Not even debatable. 

I'm not disputing that all are condemned at conception.  I'm simply pointing out that all are condemned at conception BECAUSE that's how God wanted it.  God didn't HAVE to condemn everyone at conception.

Condemnation is not based on sin as an act and there is no magic age of accountability. 

If that is the case, and I assume you're correct, it's only because of how God made it that way, but I'm confused how you would call any being perfect, all-loving, all-powerful and "fatherly" that would orchestrate a scenario where it would be acceptable to stand by and watch children suffer.

That is a heresy called Pelagianism.  Your condemnation is based on your nature.  The sinful acts merely follow.  God does not divide humanity up between the good, the bad and the ugly. 

But, he could if he wanted to.  He could punish the wicked and could intervene on behalf of the good (i.e. children), couldn't he?  The only thing stopping him are the rules he put in place....which he could change...you know.... if he wanted to.  

Once again.  Why should God only remove the sin and sinful behavior you think is bad?

Again, it's not about me or what I want.  It's about how an all-loving/all-powerful being, who is supposed to be perfectly moral, would behave, if he was all-loving and all-powerful.

You are not responding to what I wrote and just reciting your inaccurate template.  Just trolling.

[P1tchblack]

You are not being honest.  You specifically chose certain instances of evil behavior that you expect God to intervene in and stop. 

I have my opinion on some things that I would expect stopped by an all-loving, fatherly-type being, yes.  It's just my opinion.

In God's eyes, the children being raped are just as condemned as the ones doing the raping. 

Again, those children don't have to be viewed as condemned due to Adam's mistake, right? God chooses to view them as condemned. God, who actually has free will, had a choice to not initiate the Fall, to NOT require a human sacrifice to save man and to NOT view children as condemned, didn't he?  Even man has enough sense to recognize that you don't treat children as you would adults.

As I said, if God removed all evil from the world, there would be no one here.  Now once again, why should God only eliminate the sin and evil that you don't like?

I don't think all evil should be removed the world.  

Here is where you are show you don't really understand.  Orthodox Christianity clearly believes and the Bible says that all are condemned by God at conception.  Not even debatable. 

I'm not disputing that all are condemned at conception.  I'm simply pointing out that all are condemned at conception BECAUSE that's how God wanted it.  God didn't HAVE to condemn everyone at conception.

Condemnation is not based on sin as an act and there is no magic age of accountability. 

If that is the case, and I assume you're correct, it's only because of how God made it that way, but I'm confused how you would call any being perfect, all-loving, all-powerful and "fatherly" that would orchestrate a scenario where it would be acceptable to stand by and watch children suffer.

That is a heresy called Pelagianism.  Your condemnation is based on your nature.  The sinful acts merely follow.  God does not divide humanity up between the good, the bad and the ugly. 

But, he could if he wanted to.  He could punish the wicked and could intervene on behalf of the good (i.e. children), couldn't he?  The only thing stopping him are the rules he put in place....which he could change...you know.... if he wanted to.  

Once again.  Why should God only remove the sin and sinful behavior you think is bad?

Again, it's not about me or what I want.  It's about how an all-loving/all-powerful being, who is supposed to be perfectly moral, would behave, if he was all-loving and all-powerful.

You are not responding to what I wrote and just reciting your inaccurate template.  Just trolling.

I responded to everything you said. I just think you don't want to look any deeper.

[Hightop77]

Here is where you are show you don't really understand.  Orthodox Christianity clearly believes and the Bible says that all are condemned by God at conception.  Not even debatable. 

I'm not disputing that all are condemned at conception.  I'm simply pointing out that all are condemned at conception BECAUSE that's how God wanted it.  God didn't HAVE to condemn everyone at conception.

Condemnation is not based on sin as an act and there is no magic age of accountability. 

If that is the case, and I assume you're correct, it's only because of how God made it that way, but I'm confused how you would call any being perfect, all-loving, all-powerful and "fatherly" that would orchestrate a scenario where it would be acceptable to stand by and watch children suffer.

That is a heresy called Pelagianism.  Your condemnation is based on your nature.  The sinful acts merely follow.  God does not divide humanity up between the good, the bad and the ugly. 

But, he could if he wanted to.  He could punish the wicked and could intervene on behalf of the good (i.e. children), couldn't he?  The only thing stopping him are the rules he put in place....which he could change...you know.... if he wanted to.  

Once again.  Why should God only remove the sin and sinful behavior you think is bad?

Again, it's not about me or what I want.  It's about how an all-loving/all-powerful being, who is supposed to be perfectly moral, would behave, if he was all-loving and all-powerful.

You are not responding to what I wrote and just reciting your inaccurate template.  Just trolling.

I responded to everything you said. I just think you don't want to look any deeper.

No, you actually didn't.  What you typed above in bold is irrational gibberish.  In one sentence you acknowledge everyone is condemned which is true but then go on to say children are good.  Do you not see how contradicting that is?  If children are good, why are they condemned?  I am the one who doesn't want to look any deeper?  Your comments on this subject have no depth at all.  It's just emotionalism.

[P1tchblack]

Here is where you are show you don't really understand.  Orthodox Christianity clearly believes and the Bible says that all are condemned by God at conception.  Not even debatable. 

I'm not disputing that all are condemned at conception.  I'm simply pointing out that all are condemned at conception BECAUSE that's how God wanted it.  God didn't HAVE to condemn everyone at conception.

Condemnation is not based on sin as an act and there is no magic age of accountability. 

If that is the case, and I assume you're correct, it's only because of how God made it that way, but I'm confused how you would call any being perfect, all-loving, all-powerful and "fatherly" that would orchestrate a scenario where it would be acceptable to stand by and watch children suffer.

That is a heresy called Pelagianism.  Your condemnation is based on your nature.  The sinful acts merely follow.  God does not divide humanity up between the good, the bad and the ugly. 

But, he could if he wanted to.  He could punish the wicked and could intervene on behalf of the good (i.e. children), couldn't he?  The only thing stopping him are the rules he put in place....which he could change...you know.... if he wanted to.  

Once again.  Why should God only remove the sin and sinful behavior you think is bad?

Again, it's not about me or what I want.  It's about how an all-loving/all-powerful being, who is supposed to be perfectly moral, would behave, if he was all-loving and all-powerful.

You are not responding to what I wrote and just reciting your inaccurate template.  Just trolling.

I responded to everything you said. I just think you don't want to look any deeper.

No, you actually didn't.  What you typed above in bold is irrational gibberish.  In one sentence you acknowledge everyone is condemned which is true but then go on to say children are good.  Do you not see how contradicting that is?  If children are good, why are they condemned?  I am the one who doesn't want to look any deeper?  Your comments on this subject have no depth at all.  It's just emotionalism.

I should have said that I acknowledge that, according to the bible, children are all condemned at birth. I was simply acknowledging the common Christian belief, or at least your belief. The bigger point is that children don't have to be condemned at birth. They are because that is the choice that God made.