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(07-16-2021, 08:04 AM)Beastdog Wrote: (07-16-2021, 07:48 AM)davebucknut Wrote: (07-16-2021, 04:31 AM)P1tchblack Wrote: (07-16-2021, 04:22 AM)K9Buck Wrote: As I've been saying all along, Pitch, the counting process seems very convoluted and secretive. It's murky and unclear. THAT is a problem. We need simple systems (no computers) and TRANSPARENCY. As I've said all along, I don't know if there are widespread fraud or "mistakes" but I DO know that there is no way for average Americans to know one way or the other.Â
It's ok with me if you believe that everything is legitimate. I'd like to believe that too. As it stands, I don't have a clear understanding of what happened and so I am unable to say one way or another. But, I admire your faith.
It's the same counting process that's been in place for decades, with Republican and Democrat oversight. All that's changed now is that you've let a lying former president, and a list of other people, convince you that suddenly something changed. Â
Do you know what changed in 2016, vs all previous elections, when Trump claimed he actually won the popular vote if not for 3 million illegal votes? Nothing. Not a single thing changed except that Trump had the ear of a cult-like following, he lied to them and people believed him. Those lies carried over and here we are with about half of Republicans still believing the election was stolen. So for 240 years we made poll watchers stand 50 yards away and blocked the windows so they couldn't watch the tally?
For 240 years we sent the poll watchers home (only in blue areas) and left a few workers who kept counting?
You're a liar or a fool, which is it?
Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk Can't it be both?
More than anything, he's a troll, who gets off on repeating the same nonsense, over and over, because he knows it pisses people off. I feel sorry for such a person. He is nothing more than a commie in libertarian clothing
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(07-16-2021, 07:48 AM)davebucknut Wrote: (07-16-2021, 04:31 AM)P1tchblack Wrote: (07-16-2021, 04:22 AM)K9Buck Wrote: As I've been saying all along, Pitch, the counting process seems very convoluted and secretive. It's murky and unclear. THAT is a problem. We need simple systems (no computers) and TRANSPARENCY. As I've said all along, I don't know if there are widespread fraud or "mistakes" but I DO know that there is no way for average Americans to know one way or the other.Â
It's ok with me if you believe that everything is legitimate. I'd like to believe that too. As it stands, I don't have a clear understanding of what happened and so I am unable to say one way or another. But, I admire your faith.
It's the same counting process that's been in place for decades, with Republican and Democrat oversight. All that's changed now is that you've let a lying former president, and a list of other people, convince you that suddenly something changed. Â
Do you know what changed in 2016, vs all previous elections, when Trump claimed he actually won the popular vote if not for 3 million illegal votes? Nothing. Not a single thing changed except that Trump had the ear of a cult-like following, he lied to them and people believed him. Those lies carried over and here we are with about half of Republicans still believing the election was stolen. So for 240 years we made poll watchers stand 50 yards
It was never 50 yards. It was further than normal in a couple of poll locations due to covid, but the courts fixed that.
away and blocked the windows so they couldn't watch the tally?
That has been proven wrong repeatedly. The windows that were blocked were not blocking legal observers. They were blocking lunatics who were told by, I don't know... someone on the internet... to get down to the location to "stop the steal".
For 240 years we sent the poll watchers home (only in blue areas) and left a few workers who kept counting?
Again... never happened. If you ever read anything beyond far-right conspiracy theory sites, you'd know that.
You're a liar or a fool, which is it?
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(07-16-2021, 05:55 AM)K9Buck Wrote: Covid changed the 20' elections in a big way. Have you heard of Covid?Â
It changed some processes in many states. Changing processes doesn't automatically equal fraud. Six or nine states have had unsolicited mail-in ballots long BEFORE covid, and they've never had a fraud issue. Why would you believe that having unsolicited mail-in ballots in other states would automatically equal mass fraud? Why would more drop boxes automatically equal fraud?
FYI.. it doesn'tÂ
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(07-16-2021, 10:19 AM)P1tchblack Wrote: (07-16-2021, 05:55 AM)K9Buck Wrote: Covid changed the 20' elections in a big way. Have you heard of Covid?Â
It changed some processes in many states. Changing processes doesn't automatically equal fraud. Six or nine states have had unsolicited mail-in ballots long BEFORE covid, and they've never had a fraud issue. Why would you believe that having unsolicited mail-in ballots in other states would automatically equal mass fraud? Why would more drop boxes automatically equal fraud?
FYI.. it doesn'tÂ
I remember in Minnesota there were people selling their ballots for cash. I do not know how you can say they've never had a fraud issue.
(07-16-2021, 10:26 AM)cobgrad1998 Wrote: (07-16-2021, 10:19 AM)P1tchblack Wrote: (07-16-2021, 05:55 AM)K9Buck Wrote: Covid changed the 20' elections in a big way. Have you heard of Covid?Â
It changed some processes in many states. Changing processes doesn't automatically equal fraud. Six or nine states have had unsolicited mail-in ballots long BEFORE covid, and they've never had a fraud issue. Why would you believe that having unsolicited mail-in ballots in other states would automatically equal mass fraud? Why would more drop boxes automatically equal fraud?
FYI.. it doesn'tÂ
I remember in Minnesota there were people selling their ballots for cash. I do not know how you can say they've never had a fraud issue.
I'm sure there have been examples of all kinds fraud. It's well documented here. There has been signature fraud to get candidates on ballots, there have been small amounts of ballot fraud in nursing homes where the elderly are taken advantage of. I'm certain that there has been some level of bribery to buy votes. These are small scale items and are in no way comparable to what is being claimed in this election... claimed based on misinformation and lies put out on the internet by anyone with ability to create a website or meme.
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(07-16-2021, 10:19 AM)P1tchblack Wrote: (07-16-2021, 05:55 AM)K9Buck Wrote: Covid changed the 20' elections in a big way. Have you heard of Covid?Â
It changed some processes in many states. Changing processes doesn't automatically equal fraud. Six or nine states have had unsolicited mail-in ballots long BEFORE covid, and they've never had a fraud issue. Why would you believe that having unsolicited mail-in ballots in other states would automatically equal mass fraud? Why would more drop boxes automatically equal fraud?
FYI.. it doesn't I think the point is, states had a bunch of last minute changes and did not have proper systems in place to account for all the changes. This opens up the possibility of fraud. It doesn't mean it occurred, but it makes it a heck of a lot easier if someone wanted to do it.Â
You can't deny that many counties said they were going to stop counting to give their people rest, just to wake up the next morning with hundreds of thousands of votes appearing out of nowhere. I went to sleep that night around 3am, because all these places said they were going to stop counting. I wake up 6 hours later to see literally hundreds of thousands of votes had been counted. More votes than they had counted up until 3am that night.
I'm not insinuating there is fraud, but I do understand why a lot of people are concerned about the legitimacy, and places fighting audits just makes it look worse. We, as a people, have a right to audit our elections and make sure they were fair and legitimate. Counties fighting that just look bad. Why would they not cooperate and go along with it if they are confident in their results? They could silence all the critics by coming alongside these people and supplying the information and explanation they ask for.
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agree Wylie.....although I don't think that'd silence ALL the critics
No longer GroupThink 'woke'. but it was fun while it lasted.
This is the circle that "The Steal" believers paint themselves into. They are sure that the election was stolen from Trump, and any news outlet that reports anything otherwise (which are the outlets that have a sliver of integrity) are all lying. So, from that point on, they've relegated themselves to ONLY believing sites like Gateway Pundit, PJ Media and other garbage sites that have NO integrity:
According to Gateway Pundit:
AZ Audit Finds 74,000 Ballots Returned and Counted in 2020 Election with NO RECORD of Being Sent Out!
Quote: <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
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Pitch, your position has been that there wasn't anything wrong before anyone even looked at the process. You're as bad as the folks that guaranteed that there was massive fraud. Â
On another note, it's not lost on me that Fox News isn't covering the happenings in Arizona.
Anti-individualistic, the Fascist conception of life stresses the importance of the State and accepts the individual only in so far as his interests coincide with those of the State...
- Benito Mussolini
(07-16-2021, 12:41 PM)K9Buck Wrote: Pitch, your position has been that there wasn't anything wrong before anyone even looked at the process. You're as bad as the folks that guaranteed that there was massive fraud. Â
On another note, it's not lost on me that Fox News isn't covering the happenings in Arizona.
That's actually not true. I mentioned very early, on this forum, that I told my wife that Trump will either go down in history as a hero for exposing the biggest crime in our country's history, or he'll go down as an utter embarrassment. I was not immediately certain that The Steal didn't happen.
"Correct and, early on, I told my wife that (based primarily on what I read here and saw on Fox - because it sounded very convincing) that Trump may end up being a hero for uncovering the type of voter fraud that was being alleged. She laughed at me."
https://www.zigbeenuthouse.com/thread-74...#pid167028
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07-16-2021, 12:56 PM
(This post was last modified: 07-16-2021, 12:57 PM by wydileie.)
(07-16-2021, 12:32 PM)P1tchblack Wrote: This is the circle that "The Steal" believers paint themselves into. They are sure that the election was stolen from Trump, and any news outlet that reports anything otherwise (which are the outlets that have a sliver of integrity) are all lying. So, from that point on, they've relegated themselves to ONLY believing sites like Gateway Pundit, PJ Media and other garbage sites that have NO integrity:
According to Gateway Pundit:
AZ Audit Finds 74,000 Ballots Returned and Counted in 2020 Election with NO RECORD of Being Sent Out!
Quote: <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> First, a county tweeting out this stuff in response to a question of discrepancy is insane. Second, if you actually read their Twitter responses, it actually doesn't follow. It may just be they worded things poorly but they state:
1. FACTS: In Maricopa County, we allow people to vote early in two ways: 1) by mail and 2) in-person at Vote Centers. These are all considered early votes.
The discrepancy stated wasn't with "early votes" it was with mail in ballots.Â
2. The people who vote in-person use ballots provided at a Vote Center. This is not a new practice, so it's not unusual that we would have more early votes than mail-in ballots sent.
Are they insinuating early votes use the same ballots as mail in voters? This statement is unclear. Even if that is the case, that seems like an obvious oversight in the process when trying to keep accurate records for mail in ballot counts.
3. In addition, the EV32 Returns & EV33 files are not the proper files to refer to for a complete accumulating of all early ballots sent and received.
Again, they are mixing up their terms, and this does not give a clear explanation to the insinuation leveled. If the EV32 are mail in ballots sent out, then it would stand to reason the EV33 are mail in ballots received. Why would they place early in person votes in the EV33, which should be directly tied to the EV32? Why are they recording early in person voting in the same form that is tied to EV32, causing a documentation discrepancy in what mail in ballots were sent out and received?
Nowhere in their convoluted explanation does it say what records hold the information on what mail in ballots were received.
1
(07-16-2021, 12:32 PM)P1tchblack Wrote: This is the circle that "The Steal" believers paint themselves into. They are sure that the election was stolen from Trump, and any news outlet that reports anything otherwise (which are the outlets that have a sliver of integrity) are all lying. So, from that point on, they've relegated themselves to ONLY believing sites like Gateway Pundit, PJ Media and other garbage sites that have NO integrity:
According to Gateway Pundit:
AZ Audit Finds 74,000 Ballots Returned and Counted in 2020 Election with NO RECORD of Being Sent Out!
Quote: <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
I'll mention what I said earlier today.....
Once you've convinced yourself that all semi-legitimate news outlets, including Fox, are lying and all Democrat Congressman and all Republican Congressman are lying and all Democrat politicians at the state level are in on The Steal and all Republican and Democrat Judges are in on The Steal, what do you have left? Well, the answer is that all you have left are far-right, dishonest, conspiracy theory outlets from which to get your news.
Did Gateway Pundit include Maricopa Counties response? Would YOU believe Maricopa Counties response even if Gateway Pundit posted it? Do you believe MC's response now or are they still in on The Steal?
(07-16-2021, 12:56 PM)wydileie Wrote: (07-16-2021, 12:32 PM)P1tchblack Wrote: This is the circle that "The Steal" believers paint themselves into. They are sure that the election was stolen from Trump, and any news outlet that reports anything otherwise (which are the outlets that have a sliver of integrity) are all lying. So, from that point on, they've relegated themselves to ONLY believing sites like Gateway Pundit, PJ Media and other garbage sites that have NO integrity:
According to Gateway Pundit:
AZ Audit Finds 74,000 Ballots Returned and Counted in 2020 Election with NO RECORD of Being Sent Out!
Quote: <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> First, a county tweeting out this stuff in response to a question of discrepancy is insane. Second, if you actually read their Twitter responses, it actually doesn't follow. It may just be they worded things poorly but they state:
1. FACTS: In Maricopa County, we allow people to vote early in two ways: 1) by mail and 2) in-person at Vote Centers. These are all considered early votes.
The discrepancy stated wasn't with "early votes" it was with mail in ballots.Â
2. The people who vote in-person use ballots provided at a Vote Center. This is not a new practice, so it's not unusual that we would have more early votes than mail-in ballots sent.
Are they insinuating early votes use the same ballots as mail in voters? This statement is unclear. Even if that is the case, that seems like an obvious oversight in the process when trying to keep accurate records for mail in ballot counts.
3. In addition, the EV32 Returns & EV33 files are not the proper files to refer to for a complete accumulating of all early ballots sent and received.
Again, they are mixing up their terms, and this does not give a clear explanation to the insinuation leveled. If the EV32 are mail in ballots sent out, then it would stand to reason the EV33 are mail in ballots received. Why would they place early in person votes in the EV33, which should be directly tied to the EV32? Why are they recording early in person voting in the same form that is tied to EV32, causing a documentation discrepancy in what mail in ballots were sent out and received?
Nowhere in their convoluted explanation does it say what records hold the information on what mail in ballots were received.
Mail in ballots and Vote Center ballots are all part of "early voting". I received a ballot from Maricopa county in the mail that I never used. I voted on the day of the election, but I COULD have done early voting at a Vote Center had I chosen to. In that case, I would have had a mail-in ballot in my name PLUS the actual ballot I received at the Vote Center. At that moment, the total number of early ballots would have been mail-in + 1. My wife also could have done the same, so now the total is Mail-in + 2.
You can argue whether or not mail-in should be separate from other early voting, which then should also be separate from election day, but that isn't the process and nobody cared until 2020, and the fact they aren't does not equal fraud.
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(07-16-2021, 01:08 PM)P1tchblack Wrote: Mail in ballots and Vote Center ballots are all part of "early voting". I received a ballot from Maricopa county in the mail that I never used. I voted on the day of the election, but I COULD have done early voting at a Vote Center had I chosen to. In that case, I would have had a mail-in ballot in my name PLUS the actual ballot I received at the Vote Center. At that moment, the total number of early ballots would have been mail-in + 1. My wife also could have done the same, so now the total is Mail-in + 2.
You can argue whether or not mail-in should be separate from other early voting, which then should also be separate from election day, but that isn't the process and nobody cared until 2020, and the fact they aren't does not equal fraud.
That doesn't explain why they are recording mail in ballots sent out in EV32, but then recording all early voting in EV33 (which they didn't even say they were doing). This explanation also means that 74K people applied and received mail in ballots, but then did not use them, and voted in person early, when they could have just sent in their mail in ballots. I understand why someone may receive a mail in ballot, but then vote election day, if they just never sent it in. Receiving a mail in ballot and then voting early makes no sense.
(07-16-2021, 02:04 PM)wydileie Wrote: (07-16-2021, 01:08 PM)P1tchblack Wrote: Mail in ballots and Vote Center ballots are all part of "early voting". I received a ballot from Maricopa county in the mail that I never used. I voted on the day of the election, but I COULD have done early voting at a Vote Center had I chosen to. In that case, I would have had a mail-in ballot in my name PLUS the actual ballot I received at the Vote Center. At that moment, the total number of early ballots would have been mail-in + 1. My wife also could have done the same, so now the total is Mail-in + 2.
You can argue whether or not mail-in should be separate from other early voting, which then should also be separate from election day, but that isn't the process and nobody cared until 2020, and the fact they aren't does not equal fraud.
That doesn't explain why they are recording mail in ballots sent out in EV32, but then recording all early voting in EV33 (which they didn't even say they were doing). This explanation also means that 74K people applied and received mail in ballots, but then did not use them, and voted in person early, when they could have just sent in their mail in ballots. I understand why someone may receive a mail in ballot, but then vote election day, if they just never sent it in. Receiving a mail in ballot and then voting early makes no sense.
Not sure on the why regarding EV32 and 33.
In regards to mailed ballots, according to the local Fox affiliate, Arizona sent our over 4 million mail-in ballots. I get one every year, but never use it. I assume I'm not alone, but given that total, it's not surprising that 74k people would do what I do every election.
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