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(11-27-2020, 02:28 PM)K9Buck Wrote: I've seen innumerable near-death testimonies from atheists and non-Christians who say they met Jesus and that he was accepting and loving of them. I believe them.Â
What many Christians believe is that, when a non-believer dies, Jesus tells them "Nope. Too late. Off to Hell for you!"Â
I don't believe that Jesus operates that way. It's not logical. It's not loving. In fact, it's pointless.Â
Faith is a blessing that believers are fortunate to have. Some, like 3rd, might like to believe in a loving God and a heavenly here-after, but believe it's simply too good to be true. Many Christians believe 3rd and those like him will go to Hell. I do not.Â
The bible speaks of all sorts of people being condemned, but that doesn't mean that Jesus doesn't show mercy and grant them a pardon in the hereafter. You demand scriptural evidence that this is so, but you cannot provide scriptural evidence that it isn't so. You're my kind of Christian k9. I think some of the best "Christians" I've known are "non-believers." Even though he's mean sometimes lol (maybe not quite as mean as me, though) 3rdgen seems like a good dude and is likely the "up" elevator when his time comes. He's probably a better "Christian" then some of the Bible thumpers on this board. My opinion, anyway.
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(11-27-2020, 07:07 AM)dunefan Wrote: (11-26-2020, 10:06 AM)K9Buck Wrote: (11-26-2020, 09:51 AM)P1tchblack Wrote: (11-25-2020, 07:37 PM)K9Buck Wrote: Matthew 3:12
He. will gather his wheat into the. barn, but the chaff he will. burn up with unquenchable fire."
This is in line with what the OT teaches, which is that all the non-believers will be destroyed by God; not tortured for eternity.
I'm not convinced that a righteous, unbelieving person is abandoned by Jesus.
Heaven only knows if this is correct but it makes a lot of sense to me.
I do not want to be accused of being a heretic. I am simply stating my belief; I am NOT saying that it is "gospel". I may be 100% wrong. Perhaps my fellow Christians are correct and that, every day, Jesus sends thousands to suffer for eternity in the depths of Hell.
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Most Christians believe that they'll die and then find themselves sipping wine and eating bonbons next to the almight. I don't think it works that way. Forgiven Christians are still spiritually unclean and they must, I believe, go through a "purging" process (purgatory) wherein they continue their spiritual growth with the ultimate goal of being as close to God as is possible, which is its own reward and the ULTIMATE reward.
The good news, I believe, is that through purgatory we will NOT be surrounded by evil, as we are here on Earth. As the bible clearly states, many times, this world is under the control of Satan and the numbers of demons that inhabit this planet are probably in the trillions. We will not be under their temptation in purgatory. Additionally, we will not be driven by things such as lust, hunger, power, the need for material things, etc., as those things are all of the physical realm and not the spiritual realm.
Eventually, we unlearn the many evils that we learned here on Earth. We gradually lose our sinful nature and become holy and then, and only then, does Jesus take us to the father in Heaven.
Again, that is my belief. I may very well be mistaken.
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(11-27-2020, 02:36 PM)Beastdog Wrote: (11-27-2020, 02:28 PM)K9Buck Wrote: I've seen innumerable near-death testimonies from atheists and non-Christians who say they met Jesus and that he was accepting and loving of them. I believe them.Â
What many Christians believe is that, when a non-believer dies, Jesus tells them "Nope. Too late. Off to Hell for you!"Â
I don't believe that Jesus operates that way. It's not logical. It's not loving. In fact, it's pointless.Â
Faith is a blessing that believers are fortunate to have. Some, like 3rd, might like to believe in a loving God and a heavenly here-after, but believe it's simply too good to be true. Many Christians believe 3rd and those like him will go to Hell. I do not.Â
The bible speaks of all sorts of people being condemned, but that doesn't mean that Jesus doesn't show mercy and grant them a pardon in the hereafter. You demand scriptural evidence that this is so, but you cannot provide scriptural evidence that it isn't so. You're my kind of Christian k9. I think some of the best "Christians" I've known are "non-believers." Even though he's mean sometimes lol (maybe not quite as mean as me, though) 3rdgen seems like a good dude and is likely the "up" elevator when his time comes. He's probably a better "Christian" then some of the Bible thumpers on this board. My opinion, anyway. Oh probably not. Most people are decent within a pretty narrow range. There are some outliers of really good and really bad people. I don't think being a Christian really has much impact there. I'm just very wary of those who make a point of it as if I'm supposed to assume they're good because they're Christians. Like "Honest" Bob's Car sales it makes me wonder why they have to tell me.
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I think, by and large, most Christians behave pretty much the same way as non-Christians. I can be a "good" guy and then I can be a prick, as many of you know.
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(11-27-2020, 02:28 PM)K9Buck Wrote: Â Â
I don't believe that Jesus operates that way. It's not logical. It's not loving. In fact, it's pointless.
What's the justification?
Since all men are descendants of Noah, the Nations that have fallen away are viewed unfavorably?
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(11-27-2020, 03:06 PM)Blinky Wrote: (11-27-2020, 02:28 PM)K9Buck Wrote: Â Â
I don't believe that Jesus operates that way. It's not logical. It's not loving. In fact, it's pointless.
What's the justification?
Since all men are descendants of Noah, the Nations that have fallen away are viewed unfavorably?
We are God's children and are meant to be with him, not destroyed in Hell. But I do believe that we have free will and, I suppose, if someone does NOT want to be with God, he will grant them their wish. With that said, I find it difficult to believe that anyone would, upon meeting Jesus, reject him. Â
I think it's possible that everyone goes to purgatory and remains there until they become pure. Someone like Mother Theresa probably starts at a much further point in the purging process than say someone like Joseph Stalin, LOL. Â
However, souls that die and meet Jesus and remain unrepentant may very well be sent to Hell. I just have a hard time envisioning anyone meeting Jesus and rejecting him, but I suppose it's entirely possible.
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I guess if we discard what the Bible says, we can believe pretty much anything.
No longer GroupThink 'woke'. but it was fun while it lasted.
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(11-27-2020, 03:26 PM)Alabuckeye Wrote: I guess if we discard what the Bible says, we can believe pretty much anything.
Christians will take a verse such as Matthew 7:13-14 and interpret that to mean that the vast majority of people are going to Hell. The problem is, the verse doesn't explicitly say that. It's assumed that Jesus sends them all to Hell. Is that what you believe? And where is the scripture that explicitly says so?
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(11-27-2020, 03:35 PM)K9Buck Wrote: (11-27-2020, 03:26 PM)Alabuckeye Wrote: I guess if we discard what the Bible says, we can believe pretty much anything.
Christians will take a verse such as Matthew 7:13-14 and interpret that to mean that the vast majority of people are going to Hell. The problem is, the verse doesn't explicitly say that. It's assumed that Jesus sends them all to Hell. Is that what you believe? And where is the scripture that explicitly says so? again, my statement stands. We all have the ability to accept the Bible as God's word and that it is His express message to us, or we can pick and choose what we want to believe based on our individual feelings.
Matthew 7 isn't the only place. But then, I don't think that really matters. Your issue is more basic. How can a loving God "send" people to hell. That's the core of it. Rob Bell left the faith essentially over that question.
No longer GroupThink 'woke'. but it was fun while it lasted.
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Jesus doesn't send you to hell (so to speak).
If you refuse to accept him during your life why would you want to accept him after you die? He basically is giving you what you want. To be separated away from him.
And yes, scripture says it is appointed for man to die and then comes the judgement. Not sure how that is disputed in any way.
People can twist the Bible in many ways to justify their lifestyle.
Remember, the Bible was written without verses. Verses were added to help in searching passages. People love taking verses out of context to support a non biblical belief
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(11-27-2020, 03:41 PM)unc4corners Wrote: Jesus doesn't send you to hell (so to speak).Â
If you refuse to accept him during your life why would you want to accept him after you die? He basically is giving you what you want. To be separated away from him.Â
And yes, scripture says it is appointed for man to die and then comes the judgement. Not sure how that is disputed in any way.
People can twist the Bible in many ways to justify their lifestyle.
Remember, the Bible was written without verses. Verses were added to help in searching passages. People love taking verses out of context to support a non biblical belief Exactly.....
What God did with Pharaoh during his standoff with Moses was a perfect example of this. The verse says that "God hardened Pharaoh's heart". This doesn't mean that Pharaoh lost free will to make the decision, it means that in this battle of who was God, Pharaoh or Moses' Jaweh, Pharaoh wasn't going to/couldn't back down. So, God gave him his desire/steeled his resolve to stand against God.
If one has their entire life to make that choice, and their choice for X years up to death is 'not God', He will respect that.
No longer GroupThink 'woke'. but it was fun while it lasted.
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