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wydileieAn observation on college athletics
#1
This is not a post about whether athletes should get paid, or if they are or are not, employees, etc. It's just something I've been wondering.

Why can't elite academic institutions field great football/basketball teams (outside of Duke basketball) year in and year out? I realize a lot of their potential recruits simply aren't up to snuff academically. I get that. However, you'd think any player that doesn't have a blue blood offer (OSU, Bama, Texas, etc) would choose to go to a Stanford or Northwestern over an Oregon or Wisconsin if they academically qualify. Even if you don't make it in football, you have a degree from frickin' Stanford, FOR FREE. 

I was a great, but not elite soccer player in HS. I had some university interest, but never from any of the big dogs, so I decided to forego playing in college and just go to my first love, Ohio State. However, people always asked me where I would go if I was at that elite level getting offers from all over the place. I never hesitated in answering whichever Ivy gave me an offer, because, at the end of the day, that piece of paper is a lifetime of high earning potential and an instant interview at any company, anywhere in the world.

It always confounded me the best D1 school in the Midwest, Northwestern, could never compete in football or basketball in 100 years, or whatever it has been, of their history.
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#2
Ivy league schools don't offer athletic scholarships and they don't recruit. So that would be your main reason. They don't care. They have massive endowments and don't need athletics for their brand to generate donations. 
Stanford has the best athletic programs in the nation overall. So maybe the Ivies could compete if they cared to do so.
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#3
Most elite football and basketball recruits believe they have a great chance to turn pro in the NFL or NBA and obviously many do.  They tend to go to schools where they will get the most exposure and have the best chance to get to the professional level.  Most have no interest in getting an elite education.  Not that you can't get a great education there, but if your goal is the NFL you will more likely go to Alabama, Clemson or OSU over Northwestern or Tulane.
"Hightop can reduce an entire message board of men to mudsharks. It's actually pretty funny to watch."


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#4
(11-18-2020, 11:48 AM)3rdgensooner Wrote: Ivy league schools don't offer athletic scholarships and they don't recruit. So that would be your main reason. They don't care. They have massive endowments and don't need athletics for their brand to generate donations. 
Stanford has the best athletic programs in the nation overall. So maybe the Ivies could compete if they cared to do so.
Right, but Iâ€m not talking about the Ivys, specifically. Yes, Stanford has great athletic tradition, except in the two sports people actually care about. Places like Stanford, Northwestern, UCLA, Cal-Berkeley, Duke, Northwestern, etc. 

By all accounts, David Shaw and Pat Fitzgerald are good to really good coaches. Youâ€d think playing for a good coach, with a chance to get a degree from a world renowned university would be an easy pull for recruits to choose to go there. Yet, they continue to struggle.
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#5
(11-18-2020, 11:49 AM)Hightop77 Wrote: Most elite football and basketball recruits believe they have a great chance to turn pro in the NFL or NBA and obviously many do.  They tend to go to schools where they will get the most exposure and have the best chance to get to the professional level.  Most have no interest in getting an elite education.  Not that you can't get a great education there, but if your goal is the NFL you will more likely go to Alabama, Clemson or OSU over Northwestern or Tulane.
Right, and I acknowledged that. My point is more along the lines of, now that every school has a lot of exposure, such that aspect has been evened out quite a bit, why can these elite institutions not succeed? Youâ€d think anyone without an offer from a blue blood would pick one of these elite institutions if they academically qualify. Northwestern should have a leg up for every four star in the Midwest that doesnâ€t get an OSU or TTUN offer. Instead, pretty much every school in the B1G out recruits them.
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#6
(11-18-2020, 12:00 PM)wydileie Wrote:
(11-18-2020, 11:49 AM)Hightop77 Wrote: Most elite football and basketball recruits believe they have a great chance to turn pro in the NFL or NBA and obviously many do.  They tend to go to schools where they will get the most exposure and have the best chance to get to the professional level.  Most have no interest in getting an elite education.  Not that you can't get a great education there, but if your goal is the NFL you will more likely go to Alabama, Clemson or OSU over Northwestern or Tulane.
Right, and I acknowledged that. My point is more along the lines of, now that every school has a lot of exposure, such that aspect has been evened out quite a bit, why can these elite institutions not succeed? Youâ€d think anyone without an offer from a blue blood would pick one of these elite institutions if they academically qualify. Northwestern should have a leg up for every four star in the Midwest that doesnâ€t get an OSU or TTUN offer. Instead, pretty much every school in the B1G out recruits them.

Most of the recruits at the elite football factories are 4 star players.  There really aren't that many 5 star players.  There are reasons why a school like Northwestern isn't in the hunt for top athletes besides not sending guys to the NFL and NBA.  Sometimes schools like that actually do maintain academic standards that can't be reached by players that are almost illiterate coming out of high school.  Not to get into the race issue, but since most of the elite recruits are black, what percentage of those care about going to a Northwestern versus a football powerhouse?  I think very small.  When the top high school basketball recruits go to Duke or Kentucky, it has almost nothing to do with academics because most of them know they won't be there more than a year or two anyway.
"Hightop can reduce an entire message board of men to mudsharks. It's actually pretty funny to watch."


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#7
The number of 4 and 5 star players in the main sports are a very tiny percentage of college athletes. The number of those 4 and 5 star athletes that can in any way compete academically at top schools is another tiny subset. If a top academic school makes a very big point of competing and has a tradition they may be able to compete ala Duke Basketball or Notre Dame football but it isn't going to be common. Schools like Northwestern, Vanderbilt, Berkeley can field Div 1 caliber teams just not elite ones. A 4 and 5 star athlete in football and basketball is thinking professional athletics not elite educational opportunities. A marginal D1 player with Ivy League academic chops is likely thinking he'll take the pros if he can get there but will probably go to the best school he can get into not the best athletic program he can get into.
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#8
(11-18-2020, 12:38 PM)3rdgensooner Wrote: The number of 4 and 5 star players in the main sports are a very tiny percentage of college athletes. The number of those 4 and 5 star athletes that can in any way compete academically at top schools is another tiny subset. If a top academic school makes a very big point of competing and has a tradition they may be able to compete ala Duke Basketball or Notre Dame football but it isn't going to be common. Schools like Northwestern, Vanderbilt, Berkeley can field Div 1 caliber teams just not elite ones. A 4 and 5 star athlete in football and basketball is thinking professional athletics not elite educational opportunities. A marginal D1 player with Ivy League academic chops is likely thinking he'll take the pros if he can get there but will probably go to the best school he can get into not the best athletic program he can get into.
Perhaps in football, I would see your point, but even then I would expect the talent level at these schools should still be a lot higher than they are.

There is no real similar argument for this for basketball, though. A school like Northwestern would only need ~3 Top 150 players a year that academically qualify to choose to go there there to be a consistently competitive basketball program, even in a great basketball conference like the B1G. Pull a 1 and done every year with your top 50-150 rated 4* glue guys, and you would be competing for national championships, ala Duke. Heck, Virginia and TTech just made the finals a couple years back with nothing but four year glue guy recruits. 

Unlike football, in basketball, one generally knows right away if they are going to be a 4 year guy unlikely to make the NBA, or a one and done. The talent level is much more cut and dry, and if you aren't a lottery pick level talent in the NBA draft, there's little guarantee you will even be able to make a roster. Thus, any player not rated in the Top 50 should be thinking about long term careers much more than the NBA coming out of HS, which should make a place like Northwestern a prime basketball destination, especially considering Chicago and all of Indiana, is a major fertile recruiting ground.
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#9
(11-18-2020, 02:07 PM)wydileie Wrote:
(11-18-2020, 12:38 PM)3rdgensooner Wrote: The number of 4 and 5 star players in the main sports are a very tiny percentage of college athletes. The number of those 4 and 5 star athletes that can in any way compete academically at top schools is another tiny subset. If a top academic school makes a very big point of competing and has a tradition they may be able to compete ala Duke Basketball or Notre Dame football but it isn't going to be common. Schools like Northwestern, Vanderbilt, Berkeley can field Div 1 caliber teams just not elite ones. A 4 and 5 star athlete in football and basketball is thinking professional athletics not elite educational opportunities. A marginal D1 player with Ivy League academic chops is likely thinking he'll take the pros if he can get there but will probably go to the best school he can get into not the best athletic program he can get into.
Perhaps in football, I would see your point, but even then I would expect the talent level at these schools should still be a lot higher than they are.

There is no real similar argument for this for basketball, though. A school like Northwestern would only need ~3 Top 150 players a year that academically qualify to choose to go there there to be a consistently competitive basketball program, even in a great basketball conference like the B1G. Pull a 1 and done every year with your top 50-150 rated 4* glue guys, and you would be competing for national championships, ala Duke. Heck, Virginia and TTech just made the finals a couple years back with nothing but four year glue guy recruits. 

Unlike football, in basketball, one generally knows right away if they are going to be a 4 year guy unlikely to make the NBA, or a one and done. The talent level is much more cut and dry, and if you aren't a lottery pick level talent in the NBA draft, there's little guarantee you will even be able to make a roster. Thus, any player not rated in the Top 50 should be thinking about long term careers much more than the NBA coming out of HS, which should make a place like Northwestern a prime basketball destination, especially considering Chicago and all of Indiana, is a major fertile recruiting ground.

Northwestern obviously has no interest in doing what you are describing.  If they wanted to do it, they would put the money together, hire a quality coach, upgrade facilities and engage in a fan outreach and promo program.  NW is content to be the "academic school" in a big name conference and has no interest in excelling in sports.
"Hightop can reduce an entire message board of men to mudsharks. It's actually pretty funny to watch."


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#10
(11-18-2020, 02:23 PM)Hightop77 Wrote: Northwestern obviously has no interest in doing what you are describing.  If they wanted to do it, they would put the money together, hire a quality coach, upgrade facilities and engage in a fan outreach and promo program.  NW is content to be the "academic school" in a big name conference and has no interest in excelling in sports.
Actually, Northwestern has the most expensive practice and training facility in the B1G (that's not hyperbole):
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#11
(11-18-2020, 02:29 PM)wydileie Wrote:
(11-18-2020, 02:23 PM)Hightop77 Wrote: Northwestern obviously has no interest in doing what you are describing.  If they wanted to do it, they would put the money together, hire a quality coach, upgrade facilities and engage in a fan outreach and promo program.  NW is content to be the "academic school" in a big name conference and has no interest in excelling in sports.
Actually, Northwestern has the most expensive practice and training facility in the B1G (that's not hyperbole):

And it is used by athletes from all sports and even students.  Maybe there are plans for football and basketball greatness I am not aware of but this facility alone is not evidence that they are looking to move up.  Chris Collins has a career losing record after 7 seasons in basketball.  They were 3-9 in 2019 in football.  In football their recruiting classes are about 50th in the country most of the time.  There is no evidence of substantial investment in the things you need to compete with the big programs.
"Hightop can reduce an entire message board of men to mudsharks. It's actually pretty funny to watch."


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#12
3 5 star basketball players a year with Ivy League academic ability might be the entire supply. And again they're thinking pro not education because they aren't going to be in college long. Duke gets them because of their basketball record not academics. That's likely an obstacle for them not a selling point. Again 4 and 5 stars are thinking pros not education. That one or two top schools can compete at elite level works out mathematically.
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