This Catholic is done with the Catholic Church

[Alabuckeye]

HT nails an interesting point that I've discussed with friends. Essentially you have a spectrum(an apt illustration, but not one without holes).

On one end you have grace, but at its heart heretical grace(See Joel Osteen, Kenneth Copeland, etc). It is a selfish religion that views God as a supernatural vending machine. On the other end you have law, but the same is true, it is a heretical law(see the Pharisees of the NT, the Catholic Church, etc). They believe one has to work their way into heaven and that the onus is on us, thru the help of them to get to God.

The other denominations are somewhere in the middle of that spectrum. Bottom line, you can't do enough to get to God and make yourself presentable. It is ONLY thru God's Mercy and Grace that salvation comes, and our faith latching onto that makes it happen.

Another element that can be applied is that the grace end usually is much more 'emotional' while the other end is much more 'logical'. Again, both elements are necessary and one to the exclusion of the other breaks down.

K9, search the Bible....read it regularly, read it all the way thru to see God's interaction with all of history and humanity. And pay attention to

Hebrews 10:25, KJV: "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching."

The community is critical in spiritual growth. Find somewhere you can become a part of....

[Hightop77]

Many complain about the boring liturgy and instead want an interesting sermon or a "worship band" with electric guitars and professional level singers.  In the Lutheran church every aspect of the liturgy including the sacraments and confession of sin represents God's forgiveness and grace to the worshiper.  The essence of the entire service is justification.  While I understand doing that every week might seem boring to some, isn't that what being at church is actually all about?  Maybe the pastors should do a better job explaining and reinforcing what their church actually believes.  Why would you trade that, which a Christian should think is priceless, for entertainment, encounter groups or felt needs?  I don't get it.

[Alabuckeye]

'seeker sensitive worship' was a move that came into vogue somewhere in the late 90's early 00's. It was that 'church experience' with the lights and band and emotion.

I've found it is very possible to worship in the high church of liturgy and program and it is possible to worship in a more experiential worship service. As long as the focus of the service and person is on God and not on what has to happen.

the mega-church experiential places are struggling in this covid time. Andy Stanley and his 40,000 member church as an example are not meeting together because they can not 'recreate the worship EXPERIENCE in this time of restrictions'. I fear that is when we know that the experience is too important. We are commanded to gather together. It isn't negotiable. Throwing that away because people don't get to see the praise band or fog machines work the way they are supposed to is dangerous.

[wydileie]

Many complain about the boring liturgy and instead want an interesting sermon or a "worship band" with electric guitars and professional level singers.  In the Lutheran church every aspect of the liturgy including the sacraments and confession of sin represents God's forgiveness and grace to the worshiper.  The essence of the entire service is justification.  While I understand doing that every week might seem boring to some, isn't that what being at church is actually all about?  Maybe the pastors should do a better job explaining and reinforcing what their church actually believes.  Why would you trade that, which a Christian should think is priceless, for entertainment, encounter groups or felt needs?  I don't get it.

I would disagree that this is what church is actually about. Church is about fellowship and growth as a community, encouragement, and building each other up in the Lord. The teaching aspect is also a part, but I think it is overemphasized in a lot of places. It is important to understand why you believe what you believe, and to know the context surrounding your beliefs. However, fundamentally, Christianity is not some deeply complicated religion. Jesus basically said so, Himself, when he said, Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.

I would say the sacrament and confession has little to do with church. That stuff is between the individual and the Lord and is something you can do on your own time. you should take advantage of the time given in Church to cultivate relationships.

[K9Buck]

I just want them to stick to the message of Jesus. If their message is something else, I'm not going follow them, Catholic or anyone else.

[Hightop77]

Many complain about the boring liturgy and instead want an interesting sermon or a "worship band" with electric guitars and professional level singers.  In the Lutheran church every aspect of the liturgy including the sacraments and confession of sin represents God's forgiveness and grace to the worshiper.  The essence of the entire service is justification.  While I understand doing that every week might seem boring to some, isn't that what being at church is actually all about?  Maybe the pastors should do a better job explaining and reinforcing what their church actually believes.  Why would you trade that, which a Christian should think is priceless, for entertainment, encounter groups or felt needs?  I don't get it.

I would disagree that this is what church is actually about. Church is about fellowship and growth as a community, encouragement, and building each other up in the Lord. The teaching aspect is also a part, but I think it is overemphasized in a lot of places. It is important to understand why you believe what you believe, and to know the context surrounding your beliefs. However, fundamentally, Christianity is not some deeply complicated religion. Jesus basically said so, Himself, when he said, Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.

I would say the sacrament and confession has little to do with church. That stuff is between the individual and the Lord and is something you can do on your own time. you should take advantage of the time given in Church to cultivate relationships.

So God's forgiven of sin offered through the means of grace has little to do with church?  Seriously?

[wydileie]

So God's forgiven of sin offered through the means of grace has little to do with church?  Seriously?

It's a central theme of worship and services, thanking Him and acknowledging the sacrifice for said grace, but no, it has little to do with the purpose of "the Church," as defined in the Bible. Paul's letters to the churches had very little rules, regulations, and how-to's on liturgy and tradition. It was all about community, mutual encouragement, and learning from each other. I think traditions can be a good thing in churches to help cultivate a culture and community among members, but if they are made a central theme of the church, it becomes about that, and not about being together and worship.

[Orbit1]

Couple of things...
We are Non-denominational. My pastor was raised Catholic and still appreciates things that he learned and was taught back then. The reverence, the seriousness of it it all, etc...but many denominations, not just Catholics, have serious issues. I was raised Methodist, with all that has went on and accepted I wouldnâ€t join the Methodist Church now. Same with many other Denoms. Doesnâ€t mean I cannot or would not worship with them, but like I can get along with a Dem friend, but cannot support the platform they support, same here.
A far as K9â€s OP, I believe we have to be involved in politics. In the OT, it was prophet/priest/King that moved the nation of Israel, wether toward God or away, but when the King went away, the prophets called them out. In the NT did not John the Baptist confront sin in the King? Didnâ€t Stephen, Peter, Paul and others face the Pharisee and Sanhedrin and call out their wrong doing? They confronted the religious government of the day. The church has to take a stand and call out the sin of the nation, our failure to do so, has led us to where we are.
In the late 60s into early 70s we saw the greatest move of God since Azusa street with the Jesus People movement, yet we lost ground in the nation. How? Because they though Christ was returning any day so they didnâ€t get involved, so...Prayer gets removed from school, abortion is legalized, and on and on. Now our children suffer, our nation suffers, because of it.
Just because Jesus didnâ€t point the finger at them like John the Baptist, doesnâ€t mean the church should ignore politics, because I assure you, when He returns and sets up his throne in Jerusalem, it will be HIM thatâ€s reigning and ruling not the other way around.

[Hightop77]

So God's forgiven of sin offered through the means of grace has little to do with church?  Seriously?

It's a central theme of worship and services, thanking Him and acknowledging the sacrifice for said grace, but no, it has little to do with the purpose of "the Church," as defined in the Bible. Paul's letters to the churches had very little rules, regulations, and how-to's on liturgy and tradition. It was all about community, mutual encouragement, and learning from each other. I think traditions can be a good thing in churches to help cultivate a culture and community among members, but if they are made a central theme of the church, it becomes about that, and not about being together and worship.

Nonsense.  The liturgy, and every element of it, is 100% based on the Bible.  For you to actually say forgiveness of sin, the primary purpose and reason for Christianity, has little to do with the purpose of church, is like saying making sick people better has nothing to do with hospitals.

[wydileie]

Nonsense.  The liturgy, and every element of it, is 100% based on the Bible. 

Uh huh, sure it is. If you want to say the sacrament is in the Bible, sure, I agree, it is good to remember and perform as an occasional thing. It is not the purpose of the Church, though. I don't see how you can take Paul's writings and get anything resembling a formulaic liturgical experience from those writings.

For you to actually say forgiveness of sin, the primary purpose and reason for Christianity,

Yeah, that's not the purpose of Christianity. The purpose of Christianity is to bring glory and praise to God through growth and fellowship in Him.

has little to do with the purpose of church, is like saying making sick people better has nothing to do with hospitals.

Reciting some words like automatons and performing rituals distracts from the purpose of Christianity stated above. Why do you need Church to reflect on forgiveness and remembrance, when you can do that on your own time? You have an opportunity to grow, interact, and encourage each other. That is what church is for.

[Hightop77]

Nonsense.  The liturgy, and every element of it, is 100% based on the Bible. 

Uh huh, sure it is. If you want to say the sacrament is in the Bible, sure, I agree, it is good to remember and perform as an occasional thing. It is not the purpose of the Church, though. I don't see how you can take Paul's writings and get anything resembling a formulaic liturgical experience from those writings.

Then apparently you either haven't read it or you aren't understanding what you read.

For you to actually say forgiveness of sin, the primary purpose and reason for Christianity,

Yeah, that's not the purpose of Christianity. The purpose of Christianity is to bring glory and praise to God through growth and fellowship in Him.

If you seriously don't understand that the main purpose of Christianity was the sacrifice of Christ for the purpose of forgiving sin, then I don't know where to go with you at this point.

has little to do with the purpose of church, is like saying making sick people better has nothing to do with hospitals.

Reciting some words like automatons and performing rituals distracts from the purpose of Christianity stated above. Why do you need Church to reflect on forgiveness and remembrance, when you can do that on your own time? You have an opportunity to grow, interact, and encourage each other. That is what church is for.

Confession of sin and repentance bring forgiveness of sin.  If you go to a church that does not have that as part of their service, why would you even go?  The entire service is designed around the doctrine of justification or at least it should be.  If you aren't there for that, then what is the point? 

[wydileie]

Thatâ€s a very selfish view of Christianity to say the purpose was the sacrifice of Jesus to forgive sins. Itâ€s a core component in the belief, yes, but it is not the PURPOSE of the religion. Why do you need to go to church to get forgiveness for your sins? Where does the Bible say that? Iâ€ll wait.

If itâ€s not a necessary component to be forgiven, then why would going to church for that purpose be at all necessary?

[Hightop77]

Thatâ€s a very selfish view of Christianity to say the purpose was the sacrifice of Jesus to forgive sins. Itâ€s a core component in the belief, yes, but it is not the PURPOSE of the religion. Why do you need to go to church to get forgiveness for your sins? Where does the Bible say that? Iâ€ll wait.

If itâ€s not a necessary component to be forgiven, then why would going to church for that purpose be at all necessary?

In the Lutheran church there is clear theology about the purpose of the pastor in the service, the preaching of the law and gospel, confession and repentance, and the sacraments that indicate forgiveness flows from all those things and as such is the primary reason you are there.  But based on what you have said about your church, I see no reason to go to church at all.  You can get good feelings, fellowship and enjoyment by going out with friends and having a few beers.

[Bonebuck]

I left the church ages ago.  For me it started with the classic late teen/early 20s years/phase of just not going to church.  Then I married a Lutheran girl pretty much in the same boat.  We got married in a non denominational Christian church.  Some years past and my neighbors introduced me to a Baptist service and I was like...  Whoa!  What is this?  They actually speak from the heart and, get this, use the Bible during the service?!?!  Meaning, the people are following along and not just going through the motions of sitting, standing and kneeling.  That really appealed to me.  Then as you look back at the kid diddling and stuff like what you brought up here?  I definitely feel I made the right choice for myself.  

Look, I was raised in the Catholic Church and I don't wish it any ill will/problems or anything, but it definitely has a lot of problems of their own doing.  The powers that be need to do some serious self reflection when they start talking gay marriage and insanity like this.  etc...

Awesome Scarlet. I was born/raised in Catholic Church. Even Alter boy for 6-8 grade. That Religion is on crack. No way you can find God if you are searching going to a Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is a HUGE reason why so many people think Christianity is for crazy people.

[computerbuck]

I am now a non-denominational Christian.  

There are some things that disturb me about the Catholic Church.  

A few years ago I saw pictures of Pope John Paul II kissing the Koran.  To me, this was an extraordinary act of betrayal to Jesus Christ.  As you may know, Jesus was brutally honest and critical of nonbelievers, especially with the religious leaders of the time known as the "Pharisees".  He called them "vipers" and "hypocrites" and "liars", etc.  Jesus never sugarcoated anything.  

What would Jesus have done had someone presented him with a Koran?  Yea, I know, Islam wasn't created until centuries later but just go with it, ok?  The Koran says that Jesus is NOT the messiah.  It is a blasphemous book.  Would Jesus have kissed it and played nice with those that gave it to him.  The answer is - HELL NO!  Jesus would have thrown that book onto the ground and given them a stern lecture.  

Years later, the Church has a Pope that has decided NOT to follow the example of Jesus and likes to foray into the political realm.  The U.S. bishops formally recognized and congratulated Joe Biden.  

Jesus NEVER did such things.  He avoided politics and "social-justice" causes.  Jesus focused on getting people to follow him and to live a life that is pleasing to him.  If everyone did that, politics and "social-justice" would have taken care of themselves.  Of course, Jesus told us that this world is under the control of Satan and his legions of demons.  Jesus knew that mankind would not, on their own, be able to overcome Satan.  That's why Jesus came to show us the path to salvation while simultaneously sacrificing himself as the "lamb" to pay our "toll" for our countless sins.  As Jesus said, the only way to the father is through him.  Moving on, Jesus never discussed politics and certainly never congratulated humans for political appointments.  So why do the Pope and U.S. bishops do so?  Do they know more than Jesus?  

When driving or laying down to sleep, I often put on various preachers on YouTube to hear their take on things.  If they delve into politics, I stop listening because I know that they're a fraud.  

A Christian who decides to become a priest, pastor, preacher, etc., is obligated by the example that Jesus set to remain true to his example.  If I ever decide to become a preacher, I will refrain from EVER speaking about political matters.  

Anyway, the Catholic Church has demonstrated to me that they are not to be taken seriously.  They are lost.  I believe it's due to tremendous Satanic and demonic influence, to which many have happily succumbed.  I don't need to follow them any longer.  

Any thoughts?

I did the same as you years ago. The current pope is forming the one world religion. He may be the false prophet in revelation. Congratulations. You did the right thing.