Let's talk about being "born again"

[Alabuckeye]

Conan is right, I am of Wesleyan heritage.

I haven't, but will. Have something else playing at the moment.

I think a great turn for the thread would be a discussion of John 3.....

[K9Buck]

Conan is right, I am of Wesleyan heritage. 

I haven't, but will.  Have something else playing at the moment.

I think a great turn for the thread would be a discussion of John 3.....

Sure.  

Forgive my ignorance please, but is that a Baptist denomination?  

I think MacArthur was speaking about Christians that proclaim themselves to be "born again" and was pointing out that nobody can make themselves be "born again".

[Alabuckeye]

No, it is not calvinist(of which the baptist tradition descends) in origin. Again, I agree with your last sentence.

John 3.....two main characters: Jesus and Nicodemus.

Who was Nicodemus? A Pharisee.
Who were the Pharisees? A religious sect of Judaism that was devout in their dedication.....they didn't think that the Torah(OT) was sufficient in their devotion, so they added many rules and laws to ensure that they didn't stray from their devotion. They cared deeply about their devotion to God. And Nicodemus was a ruler, a leader, in the Pharisees.

When did Nicodemus come to meet with Jesus? Why did he choose that timing?

[K9Buck]

He came at night because he didn't want to be seen associating with Jesus.

[Alabuckeye]

Exactly. He had power, position, and religious piety. Yet he was fascinated by this itinerate preacher. So, he schedules a midnight visit.......and Jesus turns his world upside down.

What Jesus taught though in essence was not new..... Abraham, Joseph, David, Enoch, Moses and more all experienced a 'saved by faith' experience. Abraham being the most clearly spelled out, as well as Enoch...

[Conanthelibrarian]

MacAuthur is more of a Calvinist I believe, where you don't "choose" to be saved, God chooses to save you.  Not to get too theological, but then at that point you are born again, given a new spirit, and then begin your christian walk.  Thats the very simplified version, but basically it.

Alabuck, from what I can remember, is more Wesleyan where God freely offers it to all and some accept and some reject.  Those that accept become "born again" and begin their christian walk.

regardless of whose theology is right, I believe they are both christians. 

BUt I also agree with Ala.  There is no post death conversions.  There is no proof or reason to believe it other than making us feel better.  And if there was, what is the point of worrying now?  Go live like 3rd Gen and deal with it later.

Hahahahahahahaha.  Sorry to throw you under the bus, you were just the first atheist I could think of. 

[Conanthelibrarian]

McArthur is right.  I can not work my way into salvation.  Nor can anyone.

Did you listen to his sermon that I shared?  

Are you a Baptist?

You have free will baptists and 4 and 5 point Calvinists, so you can be baptist and have a wide range of beliefs regarding salvation.

Once you understand the Clavin/Wesleyan split, and thier different views relating to salvation, you will understand how MacAuthur and Ala look at it differently.  

One is right and one is wrong, but I believe they will both be in heaven.    BUt nothing wrong with striving to learn and understand and having an opinion on it.  

As far as Hell, if there is no hell, then there is no need of salvation, because there is nothing to be saved from.  Is it a lake of fire like is commonly thought of?  Maybe/probably/possibly?  Or it could be simply some level of separation from God.  But it is not going to be a pleasant experience.  And it will be for all time.

[Georgem80]

Salvation is the point of every religion and often the major canonic differences that led to breaks and splits. It is really hard to argue with those that believe. I mean admitting error with an eternal life on the table is not easily done.


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[P1tchblack]

McArthur is right.  I can not work my way into salvation.  Nor can anyone.

And when Jesus says something, I'd say it is worthy of becoming a premise by which we place doctrine.

Are you familiar with the sheep/goat story in Matthew (?)

[ChinaBuck]

McArthur is right.  I can not work my way into salvation.  Nor can anyone.

And when Jesus says something, I'd say it is worthy of becoming a premise by which we place doctrine.

Are you familiar with the sheep/goat story in Matthew (?)

Why donâ€t you share your thoughts instead of trolling?

[K9Buck]

McArthur is right.  I can not work my way into salvation.  Nor can anyone.

And when Jesus says something, I'd say it is worthy of becoming a premise by which we place doctrine.

Are you familiar with the sheep/goat story in Matthew (?)

Are you referring to the parable that talks about the shepherd being unwilling to lose even a single member of his flock?

[AtlantaBuck]

McArthur is right.  I can not work my way into salvation.  Nor can anyone.

Did you listen to his sermon that I shared?  

Are you a Baptist?

You have free will baptists and 4 and 5 point Calvinists, so you can be baptist and have a wide range of beliefs regarding salvation.

Once you understand the Clavin/Wesleyan split, and thier different views relating to salvation, you will understand how MacAuthur and Ala look at it differently.  

One is right and one is wrong, but I believe they will both be in heaven.    BUt nothing wrong with striving to learn and understand and having an opinion on it.  

As far as Hell, if there is no hell, then there is no need of salvation, because there is nothing to be saved from.  Is it a lake of fire like is commonly thought of?  Maybe/probably/possibly?  Or it could be simply some level of separation from God.  But it is not going to be a pleasant experience.  And it will be for all time.

Good stuff.  I can't say I'm a Calvinist but I can't say I'm not.  Was I chosen or does my ego tells me it was MY choice?  If God wants someone he will get it.  He has made it clear since the beginning of time that he chooses certain people.

[P1tchblack]

McArthur is right.  I can not work my way into salvation.  Nor can anyone.

And when Jesus says something, I'd say it is worthy of becoming a premise by which we place doctrine.

Are you familiar with the sheep/goat story in Matthew (?)

Are you referring to the parable that talks about the shepherd being unwilling to lose even a single member of his flock?

This one:

The Sheep and the Goats

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.â€

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?â€

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.â€
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.â€

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?â€

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.â€

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

[computerbuck]

I haven't seen a verse that explicitly states that non-believers are condemned to Hell if they die without having accept Christ.  One can infer that some verses imply such a thing, but to me, it leaves open the possibility that Jesus saves non-believers even AFTER death. 

Now, let me be clear.

I AM NOT SAYING THAT NON-BELIEVERS DON'T GO TO HELL IF THEY DIE WITHOUT ACCEPTING CHRIST. 

I'm not saying anything; I'm just thinking out loud.

[ChinaBuck]

McArthur is right.  I can not work my way into salvation.  Nor can anyone.

And when Jesus says something, I'd say it is worthy of becoming a premise by which we place doctrine.

Are you familiar with the sheep/goat story in Matthew (?)

Are you referring to the parable that talks about the shepherd being unwilling to lose even a single member of his flock?

This one:

The Sheep and the Goats

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.â€

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?â€

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.â€
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.â€

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?â€

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.â€

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

So this verse must be important to you. What are your thoughts about it?