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Does free will exist?
#25
(07-16-2019, 07:58 PM)Alabuckeye Wrote:
(07-16-2019, 07:45 PM)P1tchblack Wrote:
(07-16-2019, 07:37 PM)Alabuckeye Wrote: Pitch, your cops arenâ€t responsible for their bad behavior. Stop picking at them. They canâ€t help themselves

Bad behavior is bad behavior.  If you're a dangerous person, you should be locked up where you can't hurt anyone.
But youâ€ve made a big deal out of forethought and all that. 

We are all dangerous people because none of us can control our base impulses and any thoughts we might have.  Itâ€s a wonder that we arenâ€t all killing and hurting more people with no ability to curb our thoughts
 
Or refrain from acting on those thoughts... one external event is necessary for a person to act, according to determinists.
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#26
We all have free will when it comes to how we act.  We may have stressors and influencers, but the bottom line is that we make choices.  The rest of this stuff is psychobabble IMO.
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#27
Getting philosophical with PitchBlack. Lol.
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#28
(07-16-2019, 07:58 PM)Alabuckeye Wrote:
(07-16-2019, 07:45 PM)P1tchblack Wrote:
(07-16-2019, 07:37 PM)Alabuckeye Wrote: Pitch, your cops arenâ€t responsible for their bad behavior. Stop picking at them. They canâ€t help themselves

Bad behavior is bad behavior.  If you're a dangerous person, you should be locked up where you can't hurt anyone.
But youâ€ve made a big deal out of forethought and all that. 

We are all dangerous people because none of us can control our base impulses and any thoughts we might have.  Itâ€s a wonder that we arenâ€t all killing and hurting more people with no ability to curb our thoughts

I never said that who we are today is who we will always be. That's the positive side of not believing in free will. You can always take in more information and more experiences and change who you are as a person... if you're open to it. None of our stories is completely written. Look at the thread about opinions that have changed over the last 20 years.
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#29
That's the end result of having no personal responsibility/free will. You end up in the same place HT does, because he's in your camp, he doesn't believe in free will either. It's this spiral of "I have no control over my actions because I'm just made this way".......He uses it racially, you use it as yet another club to beat Christianity with.

Are we a product of our environment to some degree? Sure! Are we a compilation of our experiences to some degree? Of course.

But if there is no free will. No control over our impulses that keep us from behaving in certain ways, that is a dreadful end.
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#30
(07-16-2019, 08:04 PM)BoyGenius Wrote:
(07-16-2019, 07:58 PM)Alabuckeye Wrote:
(07-16-2019, 07:45 PM)P1tchblack Wrote:
(07-16-2019, 07:37 PM)Alabuckeye Wrote: Pitch, your cops arenâ€t responsible for their bad behavior. Stop picking at them. They canâ€t help themselves

Bad behavior is bad behavior.  If you're a dangerous person, you should be locked up where you can't hurt anyone.
But youâ€ve made a big deal out of forethought and all that. 

We are all dangerous people because none of us can control our base impulses and any thoughts we might have.  Itâ€s a wonder that we arenâ€t all killing and hurting more people with no ability to curb our thoughts
 
Or refrain from acting on those thoughts... one external event is necessary for a person to act, according to determinists.

Your ability to refrain from acting on an Impulse is also something that you don't control. For example, you have two people that are on a no carb diet. We are both presented with an opportunity to eat donuts. Whether or not each individual person is able to refrain from eating the donut is also beyond their control. Now, they can have a change in themselves that will then allow for different thoughts and activity in their brain to happen, that would allow them to not eat the donut when on a diet.
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#31
(07-17-2019, 08:19 AM)Alabuckeye Wrote: That's the end result of having no personal responsibility/free will.  You end up in the same place HT does, because he's in your camp, he doesn't believe in free will either.  It's this spiral of "I have no control over my actions because I'm just made this way".......He uses it racially, you use it as yet another club to beat Christianity with.

Are we a product of our environment to some degree?  Sure!  Are we a compilation of our experiences to some degree?  Of course.

But if there is no free will.  No control over our impulses that keep us from behaving in certain ways, that is a dreadful end.

 again, you are still responsible for who you are and the things that you do. Acknowledging that the things we do aren't under our control, kind of like you would with a two-year-old toddler, just changes your view on what would normally be seen as a bad person. If you have the neurological functions that make you a serial killer, you still have to be locked away for the protection of society.

One of the examples I read was about waking up in a park and finding an alligator ready to attack you versus waking up in a park and finding a guy with an axe ready to attack you. The feelings you would have toward the alligator would be much different than the feelings you would have toward the guy with an ax. You would hope that the guy with the ads would be put in jail for a long time, while on the other hand, you may actually bring people back to the park and show them the alligator that try to eat you. In reality, both of those animals are acting on impulses from their brain over which they have no control.
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#32
(07-17-2019, 08:26 AM)P1tchblack Wrote:
(07-17-2019, 08:19 AM)Alabuckeye Wrote: That's the end result of having no personal responsibility/free will.  You end up in the same place HT does, because he's in your camp, he doesn't believe in free will either.  It's this spiral of "I have no control over my actions because I'm just made this way".......He uses it racially, you use it as yet another club to beat Christianity with.

Are we a product of our environment to some degree?  Sure!  Are we a compilation of our experiences to some degree?  Of course.

But if there is no free will.  No control over our impulses that keep us from behaving in certain ways, that is a dreadful end.

 again, you are still responsible for who you are and the things that you do. Acknowledging that the things we do, kind of like you would with a two-year-old toddler, just changes your view on what would normally be seen as a bad person. If you have the neurological functions that make you a serial killer, you still have to be locked away for the protection of society.

One of the examples I read was about waking up in a park and finding an alligator ready to attack you versus wake me up in a park and finding a guy with an axe ready to attack you. The feelings you would have toward the alligator would be much different than the feelings you would have toward the guy with an ax. You would hope that the guy with the ads would be put in jail for a long time, while on the other hand, you may actually bring people back to the park and show them the alligator that try to eat you. In reality, both of those animals are acting on impulses from their brain over which they have no control.
No, I'm not.  If you don't believe I can choose to not eat a donut or not, how can I be responsible for choices much larger than that?

It's like you want to believe this, but you don't want to go all in on it.  This isn't a buffet. Maybe you don't have the ability to believe it to it's obvious end result.
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#33
(07-17-2019, 08:28 AM)Alabuckeye Wrote:
(07-17-2019, 08:26 AM)P1tchblack Wrote:
(07-17-2019, 08:19 AM)Alabuckeye Wrote: That's the end result of having no personal responsibility/free will.  You end up in the same place HT does, because he's in your camp, he doesn't believe in free will either.  It's this spiral of "I have no control over my actions because I'm just made this way".......He uses it racially, you use it as yet another club to beat Christianity with.

Are we a product of our environment to some degree?  Sure!  Are we a compilation of our experiences to some degree?  Of course.

But if there is no free will.  No control over our impulses that keep us from behaving in certain ways, that is a dreadful end.

 again, you are still responsible for who you are and the things that you do. Acknowledging that the things we do, kind of like you would with a two-year-old toddler, just changes your view on what would normally be seen as a bad person. If you have the neurological functions that make you a serial killer, you still have to be locked away for the protection of society.

One of the examples I read was about waking up in a park and finding an alligator ready to attack you versus wake me up in a park and finding a guy with an axe ready to attack you. The feelings you would have toward the alligator would be much different than the feelings you would have toward the guy with an ax. You would hope that the guy with the ads would be put in jail for a long time, while on the other hand, you may actually bring people back to the park and show them the alligator that try to eat you. In reality, both of those animals are acting on impulses from their brain over which they have no control.
No, I'm not.  If you don't believe I can choose to not eat a donut or not, how can I be responsible for choices much larger than that?

It's like you want to believe this, but you don't want to go all in on it.  This isn't a buffet.  Maybe you don't have the ability to believe it to it's obvious end result.

Whether it's under your control or not, you still are what you are. Acknowledging that we don't control the things we do just changes your perspective and takes some of the emotion out of it. Like I said, if you have the brain of a serial killer, you still have to be put into a jail cell for the protection of society.

If you think about it, we already acknowledge the effects of external factors in our Behavior. If you have a kid that was abused as a child and acts out later in life, most of us can view him differently because of what he went through as a child. The idea that we are the totality of our DNA and external factors really isn't that new of an idea. What changed for me, was the understanding that your brain makes decisions before you are consciously aware of them. That is a big thing to process.
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