USA a theocracy?

[P1tchblack]

It's not the Jews fault that God sent a Messiah that was nothing like the Messiah described in the OT.

Well that's not really true either.

That is absolutely true and it is THE biggest reason Jews rejected the belief that Jesus was the Messiah. The Messiah was supposed to be a great and powerful ruler who was going to defeat God's enemies. Jesus wasn't powerful, a ruler, he defeated nobody and got his ass handed to him by the government. 

Isaiah 53 said he would be an ordinary plain looking man that no one would suspect was the Messiah.  The Jews had no idea that God would appear in the form of human flesh and would be the sacrifice for the sins of mankind and would die on a cross.  As you say their only expectation was a great military leader type.

Nothing in Isaiah 53 mentions a Messiah.

[Hightop77]

It's not the Jews fault that God sent a Messiah that was nothing like the Messiah described in the OT.

Well that's not really true either.

That is absolutely true and it is THE biggest reason Jews rejected the belief that Jesus was the Messiah. The Messiah was supposed to be a great and powerful ruler who was going to defeat God's enemies. Jesus wasn't powerful, a ruler, he defeated nobody and got his ass handed to him by the government. 

Isaiah 53 said he would be an ordinary plain looking man that no one would suspect was the Messiah.  The Jews had no idea that God would appear in the form of human flesh and would be the sacrifice for the sins of mankind and would die on a cross.  As you say their only expectation was a great military leader type.

Nothing in Isaiah 53 mentions a Messiah.

It is a prophecy not a theology textbook. Certainly much clearer after the fact.

[P1tchblack]

Well that's not really true either.

That is absolutely true and it is THE biggest reason Jews rejected the belief that Jesus was the Messiah. The Messiah was supposed to be a great and powerful ruler who was going to defeat God's enemies. Jesus wasn't powerful, a ruler, he defeated nobody and got his ass handed to him by the government. 

Isaiah 53 said he would be an ordinary plain looking man that no one would suspect was the Messiah.  The Jews had no idea that God would appear in the form of human flesh and would be the sacrifice for the sins of mankind and would die on a cross.  As you say their only expectation was a great military leader type.

Nothing in Isaiah 53 mentions a Messiah.

It is a prophecy not a theology textbook. Certainly much clearer after the fact.

"Clearer after the fact" is subjective.  As far as I know, none of the passages that reference a servant/suffering servant ever mention a messiah.  Also, Isaiah 53 was written as though the suffering had already happened and not a prediction.  The other interpretation, if you look at the bigger context in Isaiah, is that it's a reference to the suffering of the people of Israel which happened because of the destruction of Jerusalem by Babylonians.  

Isaiah 49:3:  2 He made My mouth like a sharp sword; He hid Me in the shadow of His hand. He made Me like a polished arrow; He hid Me in His quiver. 3 He said to Me, “You are My Servant, Israel, in whom I will display My glory.” 4 But I said, “I have labored in vain, I have spent My strength in futility and vanity; yet My vindication is with the LORD, and My reward is with My God.”

[Hightop77]

That is absolutely true and it is THE biggest reason Jews rejected the belief that Jesus was the Messiah. The Messiah was supposed to be a great and powerful ruler who was going to defeat God's enemies. Jesus wasn't powerful, a ruler, he defeated nobody and got his ass handed to him by the government. 

Isaiah 53 said he would be an ordinary plain looking man that no one would suspect was the Messiah.  The Jews had no idea that God would appear in the form of human flesh and would be the sacrifice for the sins of mankind and would die on a cross.  As you say their only expectation was a great military leader type.

Nothing in Isaiah 53 mentions a Messiah.

It is a prophecy not a theology textbook. Certainly much clearer after the fact.

"Clearer after the fact" is subjective.  As far as I know, none of the passages that reference a servant/suffering servant ever mention a messiah.  Also, Isaiah 53 was written as though the suffering had already happened and not a prediction.  The other interpretation, if you look at the bigger context in Isaiah, is that it's a reference to the suffering of the people of Israel which happened because of the destruction of Jerusalem by Babylonians.  

Isaiah 49:3:  2 He made My mouth like a sharp sword; He hid Me in the shadow of His hand. He made Me like a polished arrow; He hid Me in His quiver. 3 He said to Me, “You are My Servant, Israel, in whom I will display My glory.” 4 But I said, “I have labored in vain, I have spent My strength in futility and vanity; yet My vindication is with the LORD, and My reward is with My God.”

So you are saying Isaiah was a historian and not a prophet as he calls himself?

[P1tchblack]

Isaiah 53 said he would be an ordinary plain looking man that no one would suspect was the Messiah.  The Jews had no idea that God would appear in the form of human flesh and would be the sacrifice for the sins of mankind and would die on a cross.  As you say their only expectation was a great military leader type.

Nothing in Isaiah 53 mentions a Messiah.

It is a prophecy not a theology textbook. Certainly much clearer after the fact.

"Clearer after the fact" is subjective.  As far as I know, none of the passages that reference a servant/suffering servant ever mention a messiah.  Also, Isaiah 53 was written as though the suffering had already happened and not a prediction.  The other interpretation, if you look at the bigger context in Isaiah, is that it's a reference to the suffering of the people of Israel which happened because of the destruction of Jerusalem by Babylonians.  

Isaiah 49:3:  2 He made My mouth like a sharp sword; He hid Me in the shadow of His hand. He made Me like a polished arrow; He hid Me in His quiver. 3 He said to Me, “You are My Servant, Israel, in whom I will display My glory.” 4 But I said, “I have labored in vain, I have spent My strength in futility and vanity; yet My vindication is with the LORD, and My reward is with My God.”

So you are saying Isaiah was a historian and not a prophet as he calls himself?

Well, "prophet", in ancient times, didn't mean you were a person who could see into the future, if that's what you're saying.  However, crystal ball nonsense aside, I'm talking about just the context of the verses.  And the context of the verses, along with all other NT references to servants, don't show any reference to a messiah.