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(10-06-2020, 12:46 PM)Georgem80 Wrote: See it references a creator. Not a Christian God. Deists were dominant in the founding fathers. Are Deists Christian is actually a wonderful discussion with experts in the field. They believed in a creator of the world that followed natural laws.Â
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A substantial number if not the majority were members of a Christian denomination. Christians often call God the Creator. Christianity was the only serious religion in America then and we largely remained that way until the atheists and multiculturalists took over. Deists might not have the exact same doctrine and view of God as Bible believing Christians, but they still see it as the same God and not some generic religion.
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10-06-2020, 01:09 PM
(This post was last modified: 10-06-2020, 01:11 PM by Georgem80.)
I disagree the majority of the framers including the influential ones were Deists. I fall on the side that deists are not Christians. They donâ€t believe in the divinity of Christ.
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(10-06-2020, 01:09 PM)Georgem80 Wrote: I disagree the majority of the framers including the influential ones were Deists. I fall on the side that deists are not Christians. They donâ€t believe in the divinity of Christ.
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All deists did not believe the same things. Further, one could make an argument that many of today's Christian denominations that reject doctrines like predestination and God's ultimate sovereignty make them similar to deists in many ways. Bottom line is deists had flawed and heterodox ideas but that still doesn't support the current inaccurate ideas regarding separation of church and state. The last thing they tried to do was create a country governed by atheism.
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(10-06-2020, 01:23 PM)Hightop77 Wrote: (10-06-2020, 01:09 PM)Georgem80 Wrote: I disagree the majority of the framers including the influential ones were Deists. I fall on the side that deists are not Christians. They donâ€t believe in the divinity of Christ.
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All deists did not believe the same things. Further, one could make an argument that many of today's Christian denominations that reject doctrines like predestination and God's ultimate sovereignty make them similar to deists in many ways. Bottom line is deists had flawed and heterodox ideas but that still doesn't support the current inaccurate ideas regarding separation of church and state. The last thing they tried to do was create a country governed by atheism.
But they surely were against a theocracy.
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Having religious influence on a government is not a theocracy.
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(10-06-2020, 01:45 PM)Alabuckeye Wrote: Having religious influence on a government is not a theocracy.
What religion?
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(10-06-2020, 01:47 PM)Georgem80 Wrote: (10-06-2020, 01:45 PM)Alabuckeye Wrote: Having religious influence on a government is not a theocracy.
What religion?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk It was a general statement, so no religion specifically.
In our situation, Christianity fits.
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(10-06-2020, 01:43 PM)Georgem80 Wrote: (10-06-2020, 01:23 PM)Hightop77 Wrote: (10-06-2020, 01:09 PM)Georgem80 Wrote: I disagree the majority of the framers including the influential ones were Deists. I fall on the side that deists are not Christians. They donâ€t believe in the divinity of Christ.
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All deists did not believe the same things. Further, one could make an argument that many of today's Christian denominations that reject doctrines like predestination and God's ultimate sovereignty make them similar to deists in many ways. Bottom line is deists had flawed and heterodox ideas but that still doesn't support the current inaccurate ideas regarding separation of church and state. The last thing they tried to do was create a country governed by atheism.
But they surely were against a theocracy.
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Maybe but they also likely assumed that the country they founded would be a Christian country and they never envisioned the possibility of functionally outlawing Christianity in school settings and allowing religions like Islam to be part of America. They set up a Bill of Rights with the liberties they deemed essential and had no thought of a separation of church and state such as the Supreme Court came up with. They were obviously not egalitarians and multiculturalists. They would not recognize the country we have turned into and it would sicken them no doubt to see how our liberties have been destroyed.
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10-06-2020, 02:14 PM
(This post was last modified: 10-06-2020, 02:15 PM by Georgem80.)
I just think the establishment clause was purposeful even though itâ€s a modern term. I lean towards the strict separation interpretation over neutrality and accommodation. I know the court has been wishy washy with its interpretation.
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(10-06-2020, 02:14 PM)Georgem80 Wrote: I just think the establishment clause was purposeful even though itâ€s a modern term. I lean towards the strict separation interpretation over neutrality and accommodation. I know the court has been wishy washy with its interpretation.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk I'd be right there with you if Congress was wanting to deem Catholicism, or the SBC or Presbyterians the official religion of the country. But they aren't. It's never been tried.
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(10-06-2020, 02:16 PM)Alabuckeye Wrote: (10-06-2020, 02:14 PM)Georgem80 Wrote: I just think the establishment clause was purposeful even though itâ€s a modern term. I lean towards the strict separation interpretation over neutrality and accommodation. I know the court has been wishy washy with its interpretation.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk I'd be right there with you if Congress was wanting to deem Catholicism, or the SBC or Presbyterians the official religion of the country. But they aren't. It's never been tried.
Not that different from beginning religious indoctrination in elementary school.
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(10-06-2020, 02:24 PM)P1tchblack Wrote: (10-06-2020, 02:16 PM)Alabuckeye Wrote: (10-06-2020, 02:14 PM)Georgem80 Wrote: I just think the establishment clause was purposeful even though itâ€s a modern term. I lean towards the strict separation interpretation over neutrality and accommodation. I know the court has been wishy washy with its interpretation.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk I'd be right there with you if Congress was wanting to deem Catholicism, or the SBC or Presbyterians the official religion of the country. But they aren't. It's never been tried.
Not that different from beginning religious indoctrination in elementary school. huh?
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As far as the founders....
James Madison:
"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious People. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other"
https://founders.archives.gov/documents/...02-02-3102
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I disagree with the honorable Mr. Madison that there's a connection between religion and morality. Society obviously needs morality.Â
I'd argue we are more moral as we've become more secular and secular peoples tend to be more moral.
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(10-06-2020, 02:35 PM)3rdgensooner Wrote: I disagree with the honorable Mr. Madison that there's a connection between religion and morality. Society obviously needs morality.Â
I'd argue we are more moral as we've become more secular and secular peoples tend to be more moral. you'd be wrong, but you are welcome to argue that....
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