Seriously, how can anyone NOT support this POS being put to death?

[BoyGenius]

I believe that the DP should be used only if there is irrefutable proof (caught during the act).  I can live with life in prison for cases where there may be any doubt at all.  However, if caught in the act, put them down right there.

Caught in the act/caught on video is a good requirement.  The problem is the premeditation and the fact that prosecutors don't always care about getting to the truth, they care about getting the win.

The decision to prosecute is usually a collective decision vs a unilateral decision and any concern for justice/truth is resolved within that decision. From that point when the DA chooses to prosecute, the sole job of all prosecutors is to win.

[Hightop77]

You're under the impression that laws/punishment prevent crime?

A killer who is executed kills no more.

A killer in prison kills no more.

This is probably one of the dumbest things you've ever posted, and that's a high bar to clear. Prisoners kill each other all the time. You even suggested it as your preferred alternative to the DP up thread, before you backtracked after getting called out.

It happens in prison, yes.  A person in prison isn't going to be able to kill other innocent people. 

LOL!  Your entire argument has been that prisons have lots of innocent people in them and now you claim there are no innocent people in prison so who cares if someone kills them.

[P1tchblack]

A killer who is executed kills no more.

A killer in prison kills no more.

This is probably one of the dumbest things you've ever posted, and that's a high bar to clear. Prisoners kill each other all the time. You even suggested it as your preferred alternative to the DP up thread, before you backtracked after getting called out.

It happens in prison, yes.  A person in prison isn't going to be able to kill other innocent people. 

LOL!  Your entire argument has been that prisons have lots of innocent people in them and now you claim there are no innocent people in prison so who cares if someone kills them.

Nope.  I have never said "lots".  There have been people who have been found to be innocent after being convicted and put in a cage.  You can't meaningfully exonerate someone who the government has killed.

[P1tchblack]

I believe that the DP should be used only if there is irrefutable proof (caught during the act).  I can live with life in prison for cases where there may be any doubt at all.  However, if caught in the act, put them down right there.

Caught in the act/caught on video is a good requirement.  The problem is the premeditation and the fact that prosecutors don't always care about getting to the truth, they care about getting the win.

The decision to prosecute is usually a collective decision vs a unilateral decision and any concern for justice/truth is resolved within that decision. From that point when the DA chooses to prosecute, the sole job of all prosecutors is to win.

Again, mistakes are made.  People lie.  Evidence is missed/concealed/mis-used.  Jurors are people who generally have no legal training, are biased,bigotted, etc.  Until the process is perfected, to remove human errors/biases, the government shouldn't be killing citizens.

[3rdgensooner]

Part of my struggle with opposing the death penalty is the fact that it could lead to additional murders. Escapes. Low level criminals killed in prison. Prison employees being killed. So it isn't an easy thing to say I oppose the death penalty. My distrust of government is pretty strong and I just can't see ceding this power to them. 

There was a murderer in Arizona that illustrates the point pretty well. He was on death row for a murder he committed while already in prison. While on death row he committed another murder. "Bonzai Bob" Vickers. What do you do with someone like that? You've already incarcerated him and put him on death row and he's killing people. He attacked eleven guards with makeshift knives and nearly escaped once. 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjS3Ii60MvkAhUbIDQIHdrYDnoQFjAAegQIABAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.abc15.com%2Fnews%2Fstate%2Fdeath-row-diaries-bonzai-bob-vickers-killed-a-man-for-drinking-his-kool-aid&usg=AOvVaw20CkS_OaScKUrzPipUXznd&cshid=1568303310384401

[BoyGenius]

I believe that the DP should be used only if there is irrefutable proof (caught during the act).  I can live with life in prison for cases where there may be any doubt at all.  However, if caught in the act, put them down right there.

Caught in the act/caught on video is a good requirement.  The problem is the premeditation and the fact that prosecutors don't always care about getting to the truth, they care about getting the win.

The decision to prosecute is usually a collective decision vs a unilateral decision and any concern for justice/truth is resolved within that decision. From that point when the DA chooses to prosecute, the sole job of all prosecutors is to win.

Again, mistakes are made.  People lie.  Evidence is missed/concealed/mis-used.  Jurors are people who generally have no legal training, are biased,bigotted, etc.  Until the process is perfected, to remove human errors/biases, the government shouldn't be killing citizens.

The process will never be perfect. As for the death penalty,we agree. Too many innocent people have been exonerated 20+ years.

[BoyGenius]

Part of my struggle with opposing the death penalty is the fact that it could lead to additional murders. Escapes. Low level criminals killed in prison. Prison employees being killed. So it isn't an easy thing to say I oppose the death penalty. My distrust of government is pretty strong and I just can't see ceding this power to them. 

There was a murderer in Arizona that illustrates the point pretty well. He was on death row for a murder he committed while already in prison. While on death row he committed another murder. "Bonzai Bob" Vickers. What do you do with someone like that? You've already incarcerated him and put him on death row and he's killing people. He attacked eleven guards with makeshift knives and nearly escaped once. 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjS3Ii60MvkAhUbIDQIHdrYDnoQFjAAegQIABAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.abc15.com%2Fnews%2Fstate%2Fdeath-row-diaries-bonzai-bob-vickers-killed-a-man-for-drinking-his-kool-aid&usg=AOvVaw20CkS_OaScKUrzPipUXznd&cshid=1568303310384401

That's a prison issue... no way should that have occurred. Guards get lazy.

[lrrps21]

My distrust of government is pretty strong and I just can't see ceding this power to them

Only thing needed to be said.

[Hightop77]

There is a lot more forensic evidence used today to convict murderers than in the past.  I think the number of people falsely convicted now compared to the past is extremely small.  The death penalty should be implemented for many killers because while prison life is not great, it doesn't represent justice for many murderers.  A brutal rape/murder by someone of a total stranger deserves more than just sitting in a prison cell for 40 years.

[lrrps21]

Part of my struggle with opposing the death penalty is the fact that it could lead to additional murders. Escapes. Low level criminals killed in prison. Prison employees being killed. So it isn't an easy thing to say I oppose the death penalty. My distrust of government is pretty strong and I just can't see ceding this power to them. 

There was a murderer in Arizona that illustrates the point pretty well. He was on death row for a murder he committed while already in prison. While on death row he committed another murder. "Bonzai Bob" Vickers. What do you do with someone like that? You've already incarcerated him and put him on death row and he's killing people. He attacked eleven guards with makeshift knives and nearly escaped once. 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjS3Ii60MvkAhUbIDQIHdrYDnoQFjAAegQIABAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.abc15.com%2Fnews%2Fstate%2Fdeath-row-diaries-bonzai-bob-vickers-killed-a-man-for-drinking-his-kool-aid&usg=AOvVaw20CkS_OaScKUrzPipUXznd&cshid=1568303310384401

That's a prison issue... no way should that have occurred. Guards get lazy.

Cameras also malfunction...

[3rdgensooner]

Part of my struggle with opposing the death penalty is the fact that it could lead to additional murders. Escapes. Low level criminals killed in prison. Prison employees being killed. So it isn't an easy thing to say I oppose the death penalty. My distrust of government is pretty strong and I just can't see ceding this power to them. 

There was a murderer in Arizona that illustrates the point pretty well. He was on death row for a murder he committed while already in prison. While on death row he committed another murder. "Bonzai Bob" Vickers. What do you do with someone like that? You've already incarcerated him and put him on death row and he's killing people. He attacked eleven guards with makeshift knives and nearly escaped once. 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjS3Ii60MvkAhUbIDQIHdrYDnoQFjAAegQIABAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.abc15.com%2Fnews%2Fstate%2Fdeath-row-diaries-bonzai-bob-vickers-killed-a-man-for-drinking-his-kool-aid&usg=AOvVaw20CkS_OaScKUrzPipUXznd&cshid=1568303310384401

That's a prison issue... no way should that have occurred. Guards get lazy.

Gummint. Gummint employees. I expect them to screw up. No win situation with killers. I don't trust gummint idiots not to kill the innocent nor can I trust them to properly supervise the guilty.

[P1tchblack]

Part of my struggle with opposing the death penalty is the fact that it could lead to additional murders. Escapes. Low level criminals killed in prison. Prison employees being killed. So it isn't an easy thing to say I oppose the death penalty. My distrust of government is pretty strong and I just can't see ceding this power to them. 

There was a murderer in Arizona that illustrates the point pretty well. He was on death row for a murder he committed while already in prison. While on death row he committed another murder. "Bonzai Bob" Vickers. What do you do with someone like that? You've already incarcerated him and put him on death row and he's killing people. He attacked eleven guards with makeshift knives and nearly escaped once. 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjS3Ii60MvkAhUbIDQIHdrYDnoQFjAAegQIABAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.abc15.com%2Fnews%2Fstate%2Fdeath-row-diaries-bonzai-bob-vickers-killed-a-man-for-drinking-his-kool-aid&usg=AOvVaw20CkS_OaScKUrzPipUXznd&cshid=1568303310384401

That's a prison issue... no way should that have occurred. Guards get lazy.

Exactly.  There are process changes that can be made to address this.

[3rdgensooner]

Part of my struggle with opposing the death penalty is the fact that it could lead to additional murders. Escapes. Low level criminals killed in prison. Prison employees being killed. So it isn't an easy thing to say I oppose the death penalty. My distrust of government is pretty strong and I just can't see ceding this power to them. 

There was a murderer in Arizona that illustrates the point pretty well. He was on death row for a murder he committed while already in prison. While on death row he committed another murder. "Bonzai Bob" Vickers. What do you do with someone like that? You've already incarcerated him and put him on death row and he's killing people. He attacked eleven guards with makeshift knives and nearly escaped once. 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjS3Ii60MvkAhUbIDQIHdrYDnoQFjAAegQIABAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.abc15.com%2Fnews%2Fstate%2Fdeath-row-diaries-bonzai-bob-vickers-killed-a-man-for-drinking-his-kool-aid&usg=AOvVaw20CkS_OaScKUrzPipUXznd&cshid=1568303310384401

That's a prison issue... no way should that have occurred. Guards get lazy.

Exactly.  There are process changes that can be made to address this.

Nope. Prisons are a gummint institution. Even private ones essentially. That mean they will be eff ups and they will eff up frequently and at great cost.

[P1tchblack]

Part of my struggle with opposing the death penalty is the fact that it could lead to additional murders. Escapes. Low level criminals killed in prison. Prison employees being killed. So it isn't an easy thing to say I oppose the death penalty. My distrust of government is pretty strong and I just can't see ceding this power to them. 

There was a murderer in Arizona that illustrates the point pretty well. He was on death row for a murder he committed while already in prison. While on death row he committed another murder. "Bonzai Bob" Vickers. What do you do with someone like that? You've already incarcerated him and put him on death row and he's killing people. He attacked eleven guards with makeshift knives and nearly escaped once. 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjS3Ii60MvkAhUbIDQIHdrYDnoQFjAAegQIABAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.abc15.com%2Fnews%2Fstate%2Fdeath-row-diaries-bonzai-bob-vickers-killed-a-man-for-drinking-his-kool-aid&usg=AOvVaw20CkS_OaScKUrzPipUXznd&cshid=1568303310384401

That's a prison issue... no way should that have occurred. Guards get lazy.

Exactly.  There are process changes that can be made to address this.

Nope. Prisons are a gummint institution. Even private ones essentially. That mean they will be eff ups and they will eff up frequently and at great cost.

Let's put it this way, processes CAN be put into place to keep guards and other inmates safe.  If guards don't follow the processes, that's on them.

[stxbuck]

Jeffrey Epstein says hello.