My pitch to see Al Oliver Jr. in the HOF

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There are players in the HOF who didn't even hit .270 like Ozzie Smith and Brooks Robinson but their trademark was defense.  Oliver was a solid outfielder but nothing extraordinary like those guys.  There are always going to be guys on the cusp like him who just didn't quite make it.

Again, it's fairly arbitrary business when we say some should get in due to great defense and other because their numbers on offense are great but defense not up to the level of greatness.  Really makes no sense.
How about this, explain why these guys are in and Oliver is not:

Come on.  When you are talking about guys like Brooks and Ozzie you are talking about guys who were among the absolute very best at their position, had long careers and were not exactly chopped liver in terms of offense.  Oliver just doesn't fit that mold.  If he had been a regular Gold Glove winner or something to round out his resume then he probably would have made it.

Can you tell me at every position guys chosen just for defense?  Can you address what I posted about guys in there with less numbers?  So now the HOF is for defense only?  Hmmmmmmm.  Based on your assumption Billy Hamilton goes in five years after he quits on first ballot....hmmm

I don't know of any player who was chosen just for his defense and that wasn't what I said.

Brooks Robinson had 23 year career.  No doubt.  Anytime you play that long I think you have to have consideration.  18 years for Oliver and all his hits and 300 BA lifetime is pretty damn hard to beat.  Ask Harold Baines.

[Hightop77]

Steve Garvey is another guy more deserving.

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Steve Garvey is another guy more deserving.

Why?

[Hightop77]

Why not?  Similar hitting stats. 10 time All Star.  5 time Gold Glover winner.  He has it all.

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Why not?  Similar hitting stats. 10 time All Star.  5 time Gold Glover winner.  He has it all.

Do you EVER back anything up?  Garvey had less BA, Less RBIs, Less runs, less SBs..he had more HRs and one more year of play and he could only play one position.  Oliver had higher OBS, Slg %, OBPS % and higher WAR.  You cannot argue this as it's fact.

So you say Garvey deserves and Oliver doesn't yet Oliver had somewhat better stats?  Please, if you say Garvey belongs at least know the stats and conclude that each deserves then.

Here are the stats. Tell me why Garvey deserves and Al doesn't.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/playe...st01.shtml
https://www.baseball-reference.com/playe...al01.shtml

I've studied and researched this to the very end. Al does deserve and others do too. It's not a science. I think Dave Concepcion does, too.

[Hightop77]

Why not?  Similar hitting stats. 10 time All Star.  5 time Gold Glover winner.  He has it all.

Do you EVER back anything up?  Garvey had less BA, Less RBIs, Less runs, less SBs..he had more HRs and one more year of play and he could only play one position.  Oliver had higher OBS, Slg %, OBPS % and higher WAR.  You cannot argue this as it's fact.

So you say Garvey deserves and Oliver doesn't yet Oliver had somewhat better stats?  Please, if you say Garvey belongs at least know the stats and conclude that each deserves then.

Here are the stats.  Tell me why Garvey deserves and Al doesn't.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/playe...st01.shtml
https://www.baseball-reference.com/playe...al01.shtml

I've studied and researched this to the very end.  Al does deserve and others do too.  It's not a science.  I think Dave Concepcion does, too.

I said their offensive numbers were similar and they are.  Was Al Oliver a 10 time all star?  How many Gold Gloves did he win?

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Why not?  Similar hitting stats. 10 time All Star.  5 time Gold Glover winner.  He has it all.

Do you EVER back anything up?  Garvey had less BA, Less RBIs, Less runs, less SBs..he had more HRs and one more year of play and he could only play one position.  Oliver had higher OBS, Slg %, OBPS % and higher WAR.  You cannot argue this as it's fact.

So you say Garvey deserves and Oliver doesn't yet Oliver had somewhat better stats?  Please, if you say Garvey belongs at least know the stats and conclude that each deserves then.

Here are the stats.  Tell me why Garvey deserves and Al doesn't.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/playe...st01.shtml
https://www.baseball-reference.com/playe...al01.shtml

I've studied and researched this to the very end.  Al does deserve and others do too.  It's not a science.  I think Dave Concepcion does, too.

I said their offensive numbers were similar and they are.  Was Al Oliver a 10 time all star?  How many Gold Gloves did he win?

Al made all star team 7 times.  He had high MVP voting  numerous years and was ROY number 2.  Garvey did not have that.  I really don't think you are looking at the entire picture.  You can't pick and choose and say this guy deserves it and then say the other guy doesn't but they have similar numbers.

[Hightop77]

Why not?  Similar hitting stats. 10 time All Star.  5 time Gold Glover winner.  He has it all.

Do you EVER back anything up?  Garvey had less BA, Less RBIs, Less runs, less SBs..he had more HRs and one more year of play and he could only play one position.  Oliver had higher OBS, Slg %, OBPS % and higher WAR.  You cannot argue this as it's fact.

So you say Garvey deserves and Oliver doesn't yet Oliver had somewhat better stats?  Please, if you say Garvey belongs at least know the stats and conclude that each deserves then.

Here are the stats.  Tell me why Garvey deserves and Al doesn't.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/playe...st01.shtml
https://www.baseball-reference.com/playe...al01.shtml

I've studied and researched this to the very end.  Al does deserve and others do too.  It's not a science.  I think Dave Concepcion does, too.

I said their offensive numbers were similar and they are.  Was Al Oliver a 10 time all star?  How many Gold Gloves did he win?

Al made all star team 7 times.  He had high MVP voting  numerous years and was ROY number 2.  Garvey did not have that.  I really don't think you are looking at the entire picture.  You can't pick and choose and say this guy deserves it and then say the other guy doesn't but they have similar numbers.

Garvey was NL MVP in 1974. Oliver never won an MVP and had zero Gold Gloves.  Big difference in these two players over all.

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Why not?  Similar hitting stats. 10 time All Star.  5 time Gold Glover winner.  He has it all.

Do you EVER back anything up?  Garvey had less BA, Less RBIs, Less runs, less SBs..he had more HRs and one more year of play and he could only play one position.  Oliver had higher OBS, Slg %, OBPS % and higher WAR.  You cannot argue this as it's fact.

So you say Garvey deserves and Oliver doesn't yet Oliver had somewhat better stats?  Please, if you say Garvey belongs at least know the stats and conclude that each deserves then.

Here are the stats.  Tell me why Garvey deserves and Al doesn't.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/playe...st01.shtml
https://www.baseball-reference.com/playe...al01.shtml

I've studied and researched this to the very end.  Al does deserve and others do too.  It's not a science.  I think Dave Concepcion does, too.

I said their offensive numbers were similar and they are.  Was Al Oliver a 10 time all star?  How many Gold Gloves did he win?

Al made all star team 7 times.  He had high MVP voting  numerous years and was ROY number 2.  Garvey did not have that.  I really don't think you are looking at the entire picture.  You can't pick and choose and say this guy deserves it and then say the other guy doesn't but they have similar numbers.

Garvey was NL MVP in 1974. Oliver never won an MVP and had zero Gold Gloves.  Big difference in these two players over all.

And Garvey never had the OBS and SLG and OBPS nor BA or RBIs or Doubles.  Oliver finished second in MVP one year and as we know like the All Star team that is not a science either.  The Gold Glove as a reason for HOF? Fielding % was also close from 996 to 980.
The stats below show Garvey doesn't have anything over on Oliver at all.   Again, if you say Garvey for HOF you really make my point.  Thanks.
Hall of Fame Statistics OLIVER
 


Black Ink
  Batting - 16 (151), Average HOFer ≈ 27
Gray Ink
  Batting - 127 (147), Average HOFer ≈ 144
Hall of Fame Monitor
  Batting - 116 (131), Likely HOFer ≈ 100
Hall of Fame Standards
  Batting - 40 (168), Average HOFer ≈ 50
JAWS
  Center Field (50th):
    43.7 career WAR / 28.1 7yr-peak WAR / 35.9 JAWS
  Average HOF CF (out of 19):
    71.1 career WAR / 44.5 7yr-peak WAR / 57.8 JAWS
Hall of Fame Statistics GARVEY
 


Black Ink
  Batting - 12 (210), Average HOFer ≈ 27
Gray Ink
  Batting - 142 (114), Average HOFer ≈ 144
Hall of Fame Monitor
  Batting - 130 (110), Likely HOFer ≈ 100
Hall of Fame Standards
  Batting - 32 (291), Average HOFer ≈ 50
JAWS
  First Base (51st):
    38.1 career WAR / 28.8 7yr-peak WAR / 33.4 JAWS
  Average HOF 1B (out of 21):
    66.8 career WAR / 42.7 7yr-peak WAR / 54.8 JAWS

[Hightop77]

No, you brought up Oliver and I am just pointing out players that are probably more deserving that aren't in.

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No, you brought up Oliver and I am just pointing out players that are probably more deserving that aren't in.

Garvey is not more deserving.  Not at all.  I backed it up with all facts and stats.  I also linked other players in who had similar or less stats.  I did not post comments without backing it up.

[Hightop77]

No, you brought up Oliver and I am just pointing out players that are probably more deserving that aren't in.

Garvey is not more deserving.  Not at all.  I backed it up with all facts and stats.  I also linked other players in who had similar or less stats.  I did not post comments without backing it up.

I would say the numbers and facts show Garvey to be a more valuable over all player who had a better career and who won more honors during his career.

[zigbee]

No, you brought up Oliver and I am just pointing out players that are probably more deserving that aren't in.

Garvey is not more deserving.  Not at all.  I backed it up with all facts and stats.  I also linked other players in who had similar or less stats.  I did not post comments without backing it up.

I would say the numbers and facts show Garvey to be a more valuable over all player who had a better career and who won more honors during his career.

AND that is your opinion.  Back it up.  What numbers?  What facts made him more valuable?  The honors are all subjective.  Hell, All Star?  Managers choose their players as back up and fans choose the popular ones.   Gold Gloves when the Field percent career was that close?  MVP isn't cut and dried either as Al finished second with his monster 1982 season.

Again, I posted facts not I would say stuff.

[Hightop77]

No, you brought up Oliver and I am just pointing out players that are probably more deserving that aren't in.

Garvey is not more deserving.  Not at all.  I backed it up with all facts and stats.  I also linked other players in who had similar or less stats.  I did not post comments without backing it up.

I would say the numbers and facts show Garvey to be a more valuable over all player who had a better career and who won more honors during his career.

AND that is your opinion.  Back it up.  What numbers?  What facts made him more valuable?  The honors are all subjective.  Hell, All Star?  Managers choose their players as back up and fans choose the popular ones.   Gold Gloves when the Field percent career was that close?  MVP isn't cut and dried either as Al finished second with his monster 1982 season.

Again, I posted facts not I would say stuff.

Their offensive numbers are very similar.  The difference is Garvey was a 10 time all star, league MVP, and 5 time Gold Glove winner.  Big edge for Garvey.

[zigbee]

No, you brought up Oliver and I am just pointing out players that are probably more deserving that aren't in.

Garvey is not more deserving.  Not at all.  I backed it up with all facts and stats.  I also linked other players in who had similar or less stats.  I did not post comments without backing it up.

I would say the numbers and facts show Garvey to be a more valuable over all player who had a better career and who won more honors during his career.

AND that is your opinion.  Back it up.  What numbers?  What facts made him more valuable?  The honors are all subjective.  Hell, All Star?  Managers choose their players as back up and fans choose the popular ones.   Gold Gloves when the Field percent career was that close?  MVP isn't cut and dried either as Al finished second with his monster 1982 season.

Again, I posted facts not I would say stuff.

Their offensive numbers are very similar.  The difference is Garvey was a 10 time all star, league MVP, and 5 time Gold Glove winner.  Big edge for Garvey.

The fact is what you list is all subjective not based on stats for choosing.   Al had higher OBS, BA, SLG, OBPS, Doubles, RBIs and 7 All Star appearance.  You are again not using stats but being subjective.   Never once heard ANYONE say that one guys deserves HOF because he was in All Star game 3 times more or won Gold Glove 10 times BUT don't consider the other STATS based on what they did not what someone felt they did to get this or that award.  Absurd.  Gold glove is not based entirely on fielding.  Their fielding % for career is similar.